A transcript of Episode 223 of UX Podcast. Becki Hyde joins us to talk about cross-disciplinary collaboration. Collaborating by actually working together and creating a balanced team with design, product Management and developers.

This transcript has been machine generated and checked by Jason Arnesen.

Transcript

James Royal-Lawson
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Computer voice
UX Podcast, episode 223.

[Music]

Per Axbom
You’re listening to UX podcast coming to you from Stockholm, Sweden.

James Royal-Lawson
Helping the UX community explore ideas and share knowledge since 2011.

Per Axbom
We are your hosts, Per Axbom

James Royal-Lawson
and James Royal-Lawson.

Per Axbom
With listeners in 190 countries from Madagascar to France.

James Royal-Lawson
Becky Hyde is a designer and Product Manager whose speciality is navigating enterprise complexity using lean product management and human centred design. Becky is a regular conference presenter on the topic of collaboration between product management and design. And she’s also the local leader for the interaction design Association in Louisville, Kentucky.

Per Axbom
at UXLX in Lisbon this year. Becky’s talk was entitled making magic with cross disciplinary collaboration. So we reconnected with her to talk about what collaboration really means. The balanced team power dynamics, the importance of being specific and how prerequisites for remote how what are some perfect

James Royal-Lawson
I was actually… is he going to say prerequisites as it’s a great word, the importance of being specific and how prerequisites for remote

Per Axbom
at UXLX and Lisbon this year, Becky’s talk was entitled making magic with cross-disciplinary collaboration. So we reconnected with her to talk about what collaboration really means the balanced team power dynamics, the importance of being specific and the prerequisites for remote collaboration.

[Music]

Per Axbom
So, Becky, thank you for joining us.

Becki Hyde
Thanks for having me.

Per Axbom
In your talk, I know you were describing how tech moves really fast, tools change really rapidly. Processes change regularly, titles change, we don’t even know who’s doing what. And you have a solution for us. And it’s called collaboration. And everybody talks about collaboration these days, because it’s so obvious that people should work together towards a solution. But what does that even mean? What is collaboration?

Becki Hyde
When people talk about, oh, we’ll collaborate they think that that means we’ll send some documents back and forth, or we’ll get in one meeting and hash out some stuff and then everybody will go do their part of the thing or We’ll use some piece of software to communicate with one another through that means. But when I’m talking about collaboration being the solution to all of these problems that we face, I mean actually working together on things with people. And like, the most common example of that, that I like to talk about for designers is working directly with developers and product managers.

So, for example, if you’re building a piece of software, rather than creating a bunch of mocks and specs and pitching that in the package over to the development team, and they go off from development without talking to you, like actually sit down together with them and work through the interface together, you know, if they’re working on fiddly bits of a user interface, actually sit down and pair with them at their computer or remotely to work on those items together because you get such more a higher bandwidth communication and collaboration so that it collaboration in my mind is more working together on a thing, then some of the the workarounds that we use.

James Royal-Lawson
when you when we’re talking about cross-disciplinary now when you’re breaking it down into into three main groups of people in your, I suppose your daily world, the designers, the engineers and product management, is that right?

Becki Hyde
Yeah, yeah. That’s the most common triumvirate and software development of you know, there’s other roles involved. So you might have a security team or a content strategy team or a brand marketing team, like insert your roles here, right. But the the construct that I like to talk about as an example of what really good cross-disciplinary collaboration looks like is the balance team and sort of the prototype for a balanced team is product management, product design and software engineering. And there can be multiple people in each of those roles. But having each of those roles represented on a team that works together, day in day out fully dedicated to one product so that they’re constantly having conversations with one another, about the thing that they’re trying to build.

Per Axbom
So day in, day out, does that mean it’s it’s people working not part time, but preferably, of course, full time with the product?

Becki Hyde
Right? Yeah. If you want to truly collaborate across disciplines, that takes time, right. And so you can’t it, uhm? It becomes really difficult when you try to match up schedules with someone who’s working on three or four different things. So if I as a designer am working on three different projects, and my developer counterpart is working on three different projects, how do we sync our calendars such that we can actively collaborate with one another on the product, the one product project we might have in common. That gets really challenging and often just doesn’t happen. And that’s where you start to see handoffs and increased documentation and communication through documentation, that sub optimises the level of collaboration, right? So, sort of inherent in this idea of having a balanced cross functional team is that each of these people is fully dedicated to one product or project at a time so that they can have that high bandwidth collaboration.

James Royal-Lawson
Well, it’s interesting because I mean, what I’ve what I tried to do as a, as a self employed UXer is I, I prefer to work maybe like 60% maximum on the big project, but only have one big project because of course you can’t have 60% times two, uhm, and then the rest of time I’ll I would like to use upon smaller things where I’m not as submersed, not I’m more of a, I suppose. Yeah. Not not a not a big player, but you know, the kind of I fully don’t need to put myself entirely into the role. So what you’re saying kind of makes sense with how I’ve learned to deal with this kind of world because I don’t. If I if I do 50/50, then I’m prioritising constantly between two teams, two worlds, and someone always loses.

Becki Hyde
Yeah, I that’s a great point. I can’t remember who said this. But the something that has really stuck with me was this idea that if I’m a person working on multiple projects, say I’m working on three projects. Every morning when I show up to work, or sit down to work in my home office, I have to decide which of these three stakeholders or three teams that I’m working with, am I going to make mad today? Because whoever you choose first, they’re happy because you’re doing their work. The word That helps them do their job. Right. But the other two could conceivably and understandably be a little frustrated that you didn’t prioritise their stuff. And maybe they don’t need it. But it’s an extreme example on purpose right as to like, why should I have to decide out of three things that are offensively of similar importance which one I want to prioritise. And a lot of this applies to people working in larger companies or in agencies where they’re not like individual freelancers. Who that is the job of a freelancer is prioritising their work, right. But a lot of this this model applies more for, for companies, people working for companies, so

Per Axbom
I can I can see so many benefits also from what you were describing the way I the best teams I’ve worked with, have been where I actually sit in the same room as the developers and I can sit down By the computer together with them. But also because that also allows me to have a rapport with them where I don’t have to design as much because they start understanding what what the things I say mean in terms of what they have to do in response to that, and that I, of course, listen to them as well, because a lot of developers have fantastic design ideas, which a lot of people tend to forget. But that also then means that I can work maybe 60 – 80% on that project, because I get that confidence just by being there and really being there with them when I’m actually in place and working.

Becki Hyde
Yeah, there’s so much that people don’t think to say to one another, or write down and send it to one another that you pick up on by working together. You know, I’ve worked with developers like sitting side by side on implementing a feature that they had, like you said, they have this great idea of a more elegant way to solve this problem that I assumed would have taken hours if not days or weeks to implement. And they’re like, actually, that’s really simple. We can just do that right now, I didn’t know that you wanted it that way. And I never would have thought to communicate that to them, because I made an assumption that it was too hard. And so by working together, you can, like, uncover that stuff. And the same for product management, right? Like, you know, product managers have such a deep understanding of the business need, and the viability of our solution.

And like what the market is asking for, that you can come up with much more creative, innovative designs, if you have that context, because design is all about context, right? We ask 15 questions, in order to make one decision that seems really simple, but it’s informed by all this context, right? That’s the work of the design. So by collaborating really closely with our counterparts in other disciplines, we can build even more context to make better decisions.

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah. I’m just thinking now about the whole thing about different disciplines. What is a? What? How would you identify the other disciplines? You know, spinning on spinning off from what you said about all the job titles, all the different titles we have, and how they change all the time. I mean how, how does that work? How do we, how do we know? How do we learn? What it is that one another person our team knows that? I don’t know. So I can collaborate?

Becki Hyde
Yeah. Because I just got to sit around them and find out right, and I say sit around, like, most of my experience with this is in person, right? Like that’s the most high bandwidth communication and collaboration that you can get as in person. Although I’m learning more and more about how to do this effectively with remote teams, because that’s becoming more and more common. Uhm, but just experiencing someone’s thought process, and like seeing the things that they have to do in their work and the decisions they have to make, or bringing them into a workshop and seeing how they approach a problem to solve, you know, that’s you just really, you don’t know what you don’t know. Right? So you just have to spend time with people to find out.

James Royal-Lawson
That’s the thing about

Per Axbom
me that is so 

[Crosstalk]

James Royal-Lawson
Sorry Per.

Per Axbom
When you when you spend time with them in person, you also talk about things outside work. And that’s how you gain the gain trust with each other. And when you gain trust to each other, that’s when you are willing and able to suggest things that maybe you’d feel embarrassed to suggest otherwise.

Becki Hyde
Yeah, absolutely. building a relationship with somebody and you know, inviting them into your process. When you feel stuck, like that can feel really scary if you don’t have a relationship and some foundation of trust with the people that you’re working with. And not everybody has all the answers all the time. We need a collaborator to help us

James Royal-Lawson
Just think about the amount of times you’ve kind of almost been tricked by people’s job roles or titles. We know that the times when you can have, you know, you work with that, that that developer who actually is really good at design or, you know, maybe new pair of got experience in programming or, you know, we can sit down and look at the code and so on that, that comes as a shock sometimes to some developers, if they haven’t worked with that kind of designer before. So you, you do get kind of blindsided by the job titles in new teams.

Becki Hyde
Yeah, you know, somebody whose job title could be not a great representation of all of the skills that they could bring to solving a problem for a variety of reasons. Like First of all, job titles are kind of wonky a lot of the time especially in like, you know, our industry changes so rapidly. Uhm, you know, who was talking about interaction design or product design, you know, several decades ago, like, a lot of this stuff changes so fast. So that’s part of it. But then also like, just because someone is in a certain role now doesn’t mean they’ve always held that role. I know all kinds of developers with a wide array of experience people who have gone from design into development or from development into design, or into product management, or have like a music degree and have gone into development, and have a way of approaching solving a problem that is informed by their experience with music production, which is really valuable experience. So yeah,

Per Axbom
but are there cases where people do not feel comfortable doing this? So like, Is there a personality type toward this where you think you have to be more careful about sitting down with them maybe and are there things to think about well, so that you just don’t scare them off?

Becki Hyde
Yeah, absolutely the way that you approach cross-disciplinary collaboration is important. So, uhm, for example, as a leader or a manager on a team, pointing it to people and saying you to go collaborate now is maybe not the most effective way to begin. Because you don’t know if those two people have a level of trust and respect for one another and one another’s work that is going to make that collaboration effective. There are some considerations of how empowered people are on a team. So you need to consider power dynamics. If, uhm, if there’s a culture of one role being seen as more valuable than another, and like, we wish this wasn’t the case, right?

We would strive to think that like all people are equally valued contributors, but sometimes There’s a culture at a company of a certain role being more valuable than another, that can introduce power dynamics to cross-disciplinary collaboration that you need to consider. And a way to mitigate that is by making sure that people are empowered to make the decisions the day to day decisions of their role and to use their expertise effectively.

You know, if you take a designer who isn’t really empowered to make design decisions, they’re really only allowed to translate business requirements into interfaces. Asking that person to collaborate across disciplines with the product manager may not go very well because the product manager in that situation has the power because the designer is not really empowered to push for decisions. And so that can make them feel not not so safe in that situation. So those are definitely things to consider.

James Royal-Lawson
So so if you are, if you are in an environment where you don’t have so much cross-disciplinary collaboration, so you are that designer and want to collaborate more with product management. How many suggestions of what I could do?

Becki Hyde
Yeah, start by asking questions, designers are really good at this, right? Um, the most common feedback around like some tension that sometimes shows up between product management and design in particular. And Laura Klein just did a there’s a Twitter thread that she kicked off just a couple days ago on this topic. And some of the most common feedback that was received was designers not understanding the business context. So if you’ve got kind of a not so healthy relationship between product management and design as a designer, start by asking questions that help you understand the business context.

You know, what is what is the market for this product that we’re building? What does our budget look like? Like? What are we being measured on by the senior leaders of our organisation? Who are maybe giving us the budget for this? Or if we’re a start up, like what metrics are we concerned with that might get us our next round of funding, that help inform your design decisions.

So that gives you as a designer, the context, you need to have effective, like strategic conversations about the experience that you’re trying to design. And then invite the product manager in, in very specific ways. So be good at asking how you want someone to collaborate with you. And a lot of times when we ask for feedback, or collaboration, we’re too vague, and so we don’t get the kind of information that we actually are looking for.

And so if you’re, you’ve designed a user flow or if you’re getting ready to design or user flow, say, hey, Product Manager, I would love to go to a whiteboard and sketch out this user flow with you. Because I want to bounce some ideas off of you. And I want to like just keep it at the whiteboard. And we’ll spend the next 30 minutes, just ideating what some of this could be. And then I’ll take it from there and refine it. So being really specific about how you want to collaborate and the style in which you’d like to collaborate if you would like a product manager to come and sit down at your desk with you and look at high fidelity designs. Be specific about what, what questions you have and what problem you’re working through and what kind of feedback you’re looking for.

James Royal-Lawson
I like that, in sense of the product managers, a lot of the ones who put a bunch of word with it, there are people that were very busy. And I liked your suggestion of being very clear, because then maybe it helps them understand the the commitment and You’re asking them to make by getting, by collaborating, you know that when you sit there and do that flow on the whiteboard, you’re not handing over designed to them, you know, expect them to run with it. And that I understand that, I can really reassure them that it’s okay just to get involved just now.

Becki Hyde
Yeah, I just want to bounce some ideas off of you for a few minutes, and then I’ll take it and run with it. And why do I want to bounce ideas off of you? It’s because I want to make sure that my user focus is matching up effectively with the business value. Right, because that’s the job of designers is to champion the user. But we need to make sure that that resonates with why our, why our business is even funding this product.

Per Axbom
Yeah. Really good. You mentioned that you were sort of getting into how this would work. If you’re a remote team. What are some obstacles and solutions who can there

Becki Hyde
Uhm, the primary thing is most teams are not all co-located or all remote, there are some hybrid of the two. And so there’s this tendency for people who are in the same location together to hop in a room and dial the room into a video call. And then all of the remote people are on their individual machines. And that creates an imbalance of experience that makes it difficult to collaborate on a level playing field.

So I am a strong proponent of one remote all remote. If you’ve got one person who is not co located with the rest of the team, then everyone should behave as though they are not co-located. So if one person has to dial into a zoom chat, and everybody should just stay at their computers or find a phone booth room and dial into the zoom chat, and that forces, things like oh, where are we going to collaborate on this document? Oh, well, we’re going to go digital first. Instead of using a in person whiteboard, we’re going to use something like Miro or Mural or one of many digital whiteboarding tools so that we’re all having the same experience on collaborating.

If one person is struggling with audio and video, everyone is struggling with audio and video, and these things matter because it’s how you are experiencing working with your co-workers. If one person is remote and you like, people do that thing where they point the laptop camera at the whiteboard and say you can see this right. And, and the remote person always says, Yeah, that’s fine. I can see okay, and they can’t you never can, but you want to be nice and help the team and be a good collaborator. So you say yeah, I can see fine but you can’t and you’re not having the same experience. So if one is remote all remote is is like the first principle for me.

James Royal-Lawson
Because it creates a it creates a power Mis-balance with the people in the room. I’ve actually I’ve actually tried doing what you said. And it’s it is really good to have everyone. You know, when we’ve had like Slack meetings and everyone goes off to the to a room somewhere and kind of joins in on the same for the first time, it feels a bit weird. You know, if you’ve got, especially if you’ve got the majority of people in the same building, but you’re still saying to everyone, go off, spread yourselves kind of find the hot place to hide. It’s like some kind of weird team hide and seek. But what it does level the playing field, and it was it was a really good experience.

Per Axbom
Yeah, it’s a fantastic suggestion. I’m usually the person who calls in and the team I’m in right now. So that would be hugely helpful. because that’d be that situation you’re describing there. I mean, I see it so often. Can you see the whiteboard? Sure, sure. I can see it. Yes, no. you just can’t. I guess I mean, there’s their lights on it and it’s shining and it’s, it’s impossible,

Becki Hyde
yeah, it’s not great. And then they probably don’t digitise the whiteboard after the fact. Because that’s documentation. So there’s, you know, there’s a lot of follow-on effects of operating that way. And you can’t see, you can’t see people’s body language where people in the room together might start having sidebar conversations. And it’s not because they’re bad people, it’s because it’s human nature to prioritise towards the people who you are in physical space with. And you can see when somebody’s like leaning forward because they’re trying to speak, but the person who’s remote, may not be able to express that except by like, waving maniacally at the camera, which is nobody wants to do. So yeah, it helps in a lot of ways.

James Royal-Lawson
Thinking about the bandwidth. When you’re in the room, of course, you’ve got more bandwidth to talk to someone physically next to you. Yeah, people coming from cameras and speakers and so on. They, they, they’re less they take up less space in the room, so you give them less attention.

Becki Hyde
Yeah, yeah, we’ve We’ve reached a point with technology where we can have relatively high bandwidth communication remotely like video conferencing technology is vastly improved even in just the last few years. And we have all these digital whiteboard tools and what have you. So it’s getting better. But if you are kicking off a new team who’s going to work together for a long period of time, or there’s a projects that you feel might be particularly risky, I’m still a huge advocate for investing and getting people together in person, if at all possible, at least for a day or two kickoff. So that you can get to know one another. You have those water cooler conversations. You can kind of understand more about somebody’s body language.

So like some people are just not super animated, which if you’ve only entered acted with them on video chat can be misinterpreted or other people who are really animated and kinetic might be perceived as not paying much attention. But if you’ve spent time in person with people, then you you have a baseline to go off of. So if at all possible, like for big gnarly projects, I recommend getting together in person. But I know that that’s not always possible. Know,

Per Axbom
you’re always thinking that it’s best to all have met before you have your first remote meeting. But it’s not possible always

James Royal-Lawson
I know, because I mean, we’ve got the challenge when you’ve got teams displaced across countries, then then that gets more difficult to get sign-off on. But at the same time, you actually is even more valuable because now you’ve got cultural differences. You’ve got language differences, you’re probably using English as the project language, but you know, the members of your team have it as a second language. So the value gained from having that kick off in one place is actually even greater.

Per Axbom
Now, when you were talking about the technology as well getting better, I was thinking, to get people even more on an equal footing, you would essentially want people to also have the same type of tech to be able to be as clear as possible. Everybody would have the same headsets, you would said that the headset to everybody so they would have that. And to make sure that you know that some will be working.

Becki Hyde
Yeah, this is something that pivotal is actually really great at this. We are a fairly distributed company. And we’ve done a whole lot of remote collaboration over the years, specifically remote paired programming, which is incredibly high bandwidth collaboration over remote technology. So we’ve got a setup, if somebody is new to the company, and then it’s going to be doing remote periods. Like here’s the headset that you need, and here’s, here’s the computer that’s going to work best for you. And here’s here’s how you will like share code with one another to make sure that that everybody’s having a consistent experience and one that they have to think about setting up as little as possible

James Royal-Lawson
remote pod programming. I actually hadn’t really thought about that. But that sounds

Per Axbom
I hadn’t thought about that either. That was really cool. Yeah,

James Royal-Lawson
I’m gonna be, I’m gonna be searching for that afterwards.

Becki Hyde
It can be challenging because it can also it can also work really well, right? When you get a good setup. And you get in the groove. It can work. In some cases, people like it better than in person pair programming.

James Royal-Lawson
Yes. Not to mention that they’re coming from their comfort zone while they’re in their comfort zone their world and then collaborates with someone in the world. So yeah, I can really see that working.

Per Axbom
And I’m thinking now that something that all teams that want to collaborate, better have to do first before they do anything else is listening to this interview.

Becki Hyde
Absolutely. Step one.

Per Axbom
Yes.

James Royal-Lawson
Yep. Definitely step one.

Per Axbom
Thank you so much for for joining us today. That’s been awesome. I learned a lot actually a lot of things I’ve been doing wrong.

Becki Hyde
Well, thank you for having me. Always a pleasure.

Per Axbom
So I listened back to this interview and I started getting this really bad feeling in my stomach because I was thinking all along. So yeah, I kept saying during the interview, yes, I need to do this, I need to do this. And then I’m still not doing it. I still I’m still in meetings where there’s one person calling in. And that of course, there’s an power imbalance there. And I’m also not perhaps doing that collaboration of full time that we’re talking about in the beginning as well, which I think was a really important point. actually working well. Maybe not full time, but specifically,

James Royal-Lawson
Dedicated..

Per Axbom
project like you. Were just so Yes, exactly. So I felt really bad at first, but then you have to circle back and think again, it’s impossible to do everything right. And, but the awareness of it helps you cope with it better and perhaps address some issues and get more empathy for the people. You’re having meetings with. And try to find other ways to work around the weaknesses of the way you’re working. Yeah,

James Royal-Lawson
I mean, it also the whole thing of framing is right and wrong. I mean, we’re just on a continuous journey to find a way of working that works well for us. And that that will always change that we’re constantly in flux because people come people go so you’ll you’ll need to be constantly looking at this and saying, This is working for us. But this the, the Thing with, the Thing about all, you know one remote all remote, that came up for me this week again, before I before I revived, look back and listen to the interview again. And I said it well, we should really try one remote everyone remote. But it made me think about how it’s a, it’s a difficult thing for us as humans to do when you’ve got, you’ve got a team a group of people stood in, in one place. And then for that group to agree that they’re going to disperse and sit in separate little places. It feels, it feels kind of, just doesn’t feel the right thing to do, it is unnatural. But I guess that’s the that’s the thing about the difficulty of times of creating or forming new habits.

Per Axbom
With changing habits with changing behaviours to accommodate something that a lot of people say this is like the future, we work remotely. At the same time, I kept reflecting during the interview as well. So what we’re essentially saying is that it’s much, much better to be physically together. But if we’re not, then we have to address the weaknesses of not being fixed physically together and find work around so are we moving in the wrong direction, you can argue also that perhaps working remote thing is not the best for us. That’s that’s a hard thing to address because it, there are so many benefits to it as well. But maybe also part of it is that the tech is not quite there yet. Because that’s something we’ve joked about in a lot of other episodes. About how you’re always addressing tech issues when you’re doing remote meetings.

James Royal-Lawson
But I think as got that has got better, that has got a lot better. I mean, this I mean, I know it’s kind of almost certain I know, when I get an invite to a meeting, if it’s a certain web conferencing tool, I know it’s gonna be hard work, whereas other ones, I’m pretty sure it’s gonna work. So that you know, there’s there is a, I think there is a different balance now to what the wall is just a few years ago.

Per Axbom
I agree. This is where I work now. They’re different tech sets up setups in different rooms. So some people feel comfortable depending on what room they walk into. So there’s Yeah, there’s all kinds of issues.

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah. I think another point I wanted to just bring up again, was the the idea of what collaboration we talked to in of the years about it, should designers know how to programme and we’ve generally said, well, no, they don’t need to make to be able to produce production-ready shipable code, but they need to have an awareness of, of the, of the, of the medium they’re working in.

Per Axbom
Right. And that is the power of collaboration. It’s amazing

James Royal-Lawson
Exactly. Yeah, because I mean, if you if you sit with are you doing a conference call with someone of another discipline, then you, you you’re extending your capabilities. You don’t need to do the other person’s job as well as them because you know, you’re two different people and, and that two resources working together can be so much more effective and fast. Yeah. Chris Noessel we had on the show, of course, people will know but well, four times I think it is. He’s published recently, a full transcript of one of his paired designing sessions, where two designers work together

Per Axbom
I love the transparency of that

James Royal-Lawson
and he’s even written an E-book about that is fantastic but, but just looking at it, I mean, it’s quite a long thing, but just looking through it that you realise that the dynamic when you’ve got two minds working on something, in this case, it was two designers, but they have two different roles in the in the creation and the collaborative process and creation process. But when you’ve got two minds working together, it’s it’s not it’s not necessarily more expensive, you know, wasteful resources, because you’re getting, you’re getting sign up, you’re getting kind of, you’re going forward quicker, rather than doing something by yourself, then presenting it or sharing it getting approval, or getting rejection, having to go back doing it all again, ultimately using more time than you would and if you’d work two people together.

Per Axbom
Exactly. And this is really interesting because we always talk about pair designing or we talk about pair programming. We don’t really have a word for pair collaborating across disciplines. Because when we sort of address this in the interview as well, because the titles get in the way, we think a person is a specific thing. Because they have a specific title, but the breadth and width of their competence can be so much more. And especially when you sit together and learn about each other. That’s when things start to happen. I always argue this as well, that what you’re saying if you’re two people working on the same thing, you work four or five times as fast as if you’re doing it yourself. Thank you for spending your time with us. links and notes from this episode can be found on uxpodcast.com if you can’t find them in your pod playing tool of choice.

James Royal-Lawson
And remember, you can contribute to funding the show by visiting uxpodcast.com/support.

Per Axbom
Remember to keep moving.

James Royal-Lawson
See you on the other side.

[Music]

James Royal-Lawson
How many programmes does it take to screw in a light bulb?

Per Axbom
I don’t know James, how many programmers does it take to screw in a light bulb?

James Royal-Lawson
None. It’s a hardware problem.

This is a transcript of a conversation between James Royal-Lawson, Per Axbom and Becki Hyde. Recorded in August 2019 and published as Episode 223 of UX Podcast. 

This transcript has been machine generated and checked by Jason Arnesen.