A transcript of Episode 210 of UX Podcast. Marc Stickdorn, co-author of This Is Service Design and This Is Service Design doing, joins us to talk about how to get service design truly embedded in organisations.

This transcript has been machine generated and checked by Lizzie Hedges.

Transcript

Per Axbom
You’re listening to UX Podcast coming to you from Stockholm, Sweden, we are your hosts Per Axbom,

James Royal-Lawson
I’m James Royal-Lawson,

Per Axbom
with listeners in 184 countries from the United States of America to Somalia.

James Royal-Lawson
Marc Stickdorn has a background in strategic management, and service design, and has co-authored This is Service Design Thinking, This is Service Design Doing and This is Service Design Methods.

Per Axbom
He spoke at From Business to Buttons 2019 with a talk: Doing is the Hard Part, How to Embed Service Design in Organizations. And we sat down with Marc in a dressing room at the conference venue Cirkus and talked, what do you know, service design.

Marc Stickdorn
I like to quote a friend of mine, Lou Downe, who used to lead the service design practice within the digital government services in the UK. And when she gets asked like what is service design, she likes to say the design of service. And that’s it. There’s no magic around it. That’s what we’re doing. And she’s absolutely true with that. That’s it.

Per Axbom
And that’s the point. Isn’t it, there is no magic, but there’s a lot of hard work. But people always want to find the magic, they always want to find, so can we learn some new tool that can help us perform the magic faster? Because people just don’t want to do the legwork.

Marc Stickdorn
I got this new tool in my pocket, it costs like a million if you want to buy it yearly. It doesn’t work like that. No, it is it is hard work. And particularly if you do service design to really have an impact on citizens, on customers, on users, it’s fairly easy if you if you only do service design until you create a new journey map or a new blueprint or something like that. But that is just a tool we use.

And it should never be the final thing. Because if you as an agency, create something lets say like a blueprint, and then you pass it over to your clients, and now it’s just your job, just make it real, it will fail. I mean, that’s really, really hard to implement, because the organization lacks ownership of that and probably doing piloting, you really need to work on that, you need to iterate further. And you only learn that when you start implementing that, and that’s a habit.

Per Axbom
And you actually did say something at the end of your talk, when you were getting questions on stage about how design is a team sport. It’s actually not the job of the designers to do everything, because that’s just impossible.

Marc Stickdorn
It’s, yeah, it’s impossible. I mean, if you design a house it doesn’t mean that you build the whole house with your own hands, right? I mean, of course you can do it, but probably it will be shitty. I rather work with professionals who know their stuff. So you need people who have done that before. So if we talked about services, it really depends on the industry, on the organization, on the product service, who actually you need in this team.

Marc Stickdorn
And sometimes you don’t know that in the beginning, because you don’t know what it is maybe you start with research. And you have your team for research. And a core team remains throughout the project. But the wider project team changes over time, depending on what you need.

So at some point during prototyping, you realize that goes in a certain direction, and you have clearance for that and you go for that. And then you need to start to build your team who’s actually starting implementing that. And depending on the project that might include architects, that might include a engineers, that might include coders, it depends on the project.

James Royal-Lawson
I think it’s fascinating. We, you know, we’re aware as designers that things need to be designed. And we’re generally aware that that process isn’t linear. But yet, we seem to, as this proves, that we’re not really aware of the fact that our process itself is constantly under design, and needs to be designed, while we’re designing. I said designer way too many times.

Marc Stickdorn
I think it’s it’s also a difference between internal language, expert language, when when we take a look at at a model of a process, we know that this is just a model. And that actually we’re jumping in between, in the end, we don’t care about that because we got to do whatever we need to do as a next step. So I think among experts, these models work, because we know it’s just a framework for us, it gives us a bit of guidance.

The problem is, if someone who doesn’t know that yet, takes a look at this process, all of them look very similar. And they all look very linear. And it doesn’t matter if it’s if it’s a circle, because in the end, the circle is just a linear process bent together, right. But it’s still a linear process. And that’s why you have this this misconception. And even though you stress it out, when you’re talking that design is iterative, and so on. It doesn’t mean something to people that didn’t went through that themselves. And they didn’t experience the power of actually going back.

Marc Stickdorn
And just this notion of going back already shows the problem of that. Because when you say we need to take a step back, we need to go back in the process. It feels like a failure, because you’re not progressing, you’re going back. And that’s because in our mental our mental model is a linear process that. So if we go back and, I can say that, in fact, probably you saved millions because you didn’t pursue a dead end. But it’s it’s hard to talk about that.

And that’s why I really think the only way to learn that is by going through a design process. And I’m really, really happy to see that design in whatever form or whatever label is now getting more and more part of, of university curriculum of MBA programs of professional education, even of high school curricula. So I live in Austria, Austria was the first country worldwide that put service design into the national high school curriculum. It says one stream of schools and their students at the age of 15, 16, learn service design for a whole year.

Per Axbom
Fantastic.

Marc Stickdorn
That’s fantastic. Because once you you went through such a process, even if it’s on it on a high school level, of course, not as sophisticated as we do in a professional way later, but you get a feeling for first what you can accomplish, and how do you do that, that you really need to understand users, that you need to prototype, you need to change your prototypes and adapt it. And the second learning is regarding entrepreneurship, because the students have to make a service real. So that means that I understand that all the environment around them has been designed by someone and you can actually change it. So that’s a great power.

James Royal-Lawson
I think that you’re making them aware that so many things that they come into contact on a daily basis, aren’t just magic, it’s a step to take and understand that if someone has considered aspects of all these things around us, or not. There’s an opportunity in life to change it.

Marc Stickdorn
Everything is designed. Is it just the question if it was designed, cautiously or consciously, and well, or not consciously, and probably pretty shitty, but someone took care that.

Per Axbom
And it helps you understand then that actually, if somebody didn’t take care and understand everything before building it, maybe I can do better and build a better product.

Marc Stickdorn
Exactly.

Per Axbom
And that’s something a point you made in your talk as well, that we are really bad at the implementation phase,  about talking about the implementation phase, about how do products succeed by having us implement them in the correct way.

Marc Stickdorn
I don’t want to bash it like like, the whole design industry, like oh, no, we all suck at making stuff. That’s not true. I mean, there’s great stuff out there. So definitely, we don’t suck at all of that. But I think when we talk about this stuff, we’re pretty much focused on processes, tools and methods.

And we don’t focus enough yet about the final phase of that, and which is if we take a look at the entire design phase until something got really implemented up, it’s running on a daily basis, probably talk about the first, third or half part. But the second half part, actually getting it done through pilots, then iterating, is at least as much important, and we should talk just as much more about it. And there are folks out there who are really, really good at that.

Per Axbom
Oh, absolutely.

James Royal-Lawson
And I think also that part of implementation, which is also often considered a frustration by designers, rather than an opportunity for understanding, is understanding the business itself. And how that process works, that an important part of implementation is, is understanding that, that marketing and sales, maybe have to understand where you are, where you’re going. So they can do something of their job. And then business got – there’s more going on than just your design process, which is, like you said part of that process you’ve you’ve inherited or seen with it’s stages. All this is also there.

Per Axbom
And the support organization needs to know that there will be calls coming because people can’t find anything, no matter how good of a work you do.

Marc Stickdorn
Absolutely. So when when you think about the rollout, like often we do prototype, we test it in one instance, between one shop and one hotel, something like that. But then when we when we roll it out, and we actually spread it out across organizations, suddenly, the designers who manage the whole prototyping and piloting phase are not there anymore.

And that’s where it gets really, really tricky, because there’s no one there who can quickly adjust it. So a pilot is actually a prototype for implementation. So we should use and understand the pilot, let it roll without us interfering in that. Let’s see how the road that works in another instance, another shop, another hotel, whatever we’re working on, and see if it works. And tackle that, again, as as research understand where doesn’t it work. So we can again, iterate on that.

Marc Stickdorn
So we, as a designer, don’t leave too early. Try to stick with it until it is really out there and running on a daily basis. I think what we we’re still need to improve is measuring the impact. One question I often get is what is the return of investment of service design? And that is a that is a question that is impossible to answer. So I like to ask back, what is the return of investment of marketing, in general? What is return of investment of management, in general? What is the return of investment of design, in general. It’s impossible to answer.

If you ask someone for marketing, what is your return of investment, they will clearly tell you, well, the most three most successful campaigns, there was a return of investment. That’s how much we spent, that’s effect of it. And we can do exactly the same with design. For every service design project we can agree on what do we actually want to impact, measure baseline for the project, measure it after implementation when it’s up and running on a daily basis. We know how much time we’ve put in that we much budget we’ve put in there. And we can calculate return of investment. It’s just impossible to answer, in general.

James Royal-Lawson
And also, we don’t need to, like kind of pointing fingers and saying, well, you need to justify your existence, or some of this comes from it’s like well, service design, why do we need to do that? Tell me how much you can deliver to my company. As opposed to maybe accepting that this is this is this is baseline work that the whole company needs to embrace, rather than silo-fy out of the silo will budget pointed to the side. You said not just one process was something that you mentioned during the talk. Which led on to the question, when is a process good enough?

Marc Stickdorn
Well, that’s the thing, you can’t measure it, you can’t measure, okay, that process is 98% accurate right now,

Per Axbom
It would be interesting thought actually…

James Royal-Lawson
Well you can imagine a nice slide we said well know that process, it’s a 53%. You don’t want to do that.

Marc Stickdorn
But if we start project, we probably have an idiot process in our head, what we would like to do, including loads of research, including involving a huge team of experts, very diverse, and so on. And then the real life constraints come into play and maybe it’s budget or time and that restricts yourself from working in an ideal process with the ideal team, it’s never ideal.

So you always need to wing it at some point. So when we designed the process itself, it’s a lot about understanding how much value does each of these elements actually bring to me? How much can I learn as early as possible from that? How much do I need to learn? So in in research, if we if we argue with like the theoretical saturation, if we achieve the moment of theoretical saturation, and we know that more research doesn’t really help us to learn more, because we read the status and everything. Every new interview, every new observation just confirms what we already know.

Per Axbom
Or at least it seems to be too expensive to go further on.

Marc Stickdorn
And that’s one question. So sometimes we keep on going, because we think we need this to confirm our assumption, because having 25 interviews is not enough. It’s not representative. So to present that management, we probably need 100, 200? So let’s just spend more money here. It’s a waste of money.

Per Axbom
Oh, imagine the cost driven by what management needs.

Marc Stickdorn
It’s part of the culture change. I work with some clients where these discussions really change in the beginning. And we always offered after an explorative research, we offered to do evaluative research, a quantitative check of our findings, to make sure they have the numbers and it’s, it’s accurate. And in the beginning, yes they always went for it, at some point, they realized like, okay, we are losing a few weeks for that, we’re losing shit loads of budget, but actually in 95%, it confirms what we knew before. So why are we doing that?

And that is again, the sign of design maturity, when organizations realize, when management realize that and said, okay, we, we stopped that we, if the qualitative research is done well, and you you follow, like basic rules of qualitative research, like using triangulation, different methods, different researchers to level out the biases and so on, then we can trust it. Because there will be more steps in the process where we see if our idea is really working or not. Or if that is really a user need. If it’s not, we might lose a few days, because then we go on and prototyping in one direction, that doesn’t work.

But at least there we’re going to learn that it doesn’t work. So the higher the design maturity, the more management will be also on the side, and I hate this fight between design and management. Because if you have a high design maturity, it’s not a fight. But designers can help management a lot. And vice versa, management can help designers.

James Royal-Lawson
I was thinking if it’s that that’s more kind of what the high level of design maturity is, what are the telltale signs say that you are at the low level, even though you think you’re working with service design? Are there any kind of telltale giveaways?

Marc Stickdorn
I forgot who that was, but it’s a story someone told at at the Doers Conference last week in Budapest, was that he went as an agency to a client and asked them – so they call it design thinking – so I heard you you practice design thinking? Do you do that? Oh, yeah, twice a week. Right, what does that mean, right?

Marc Stickdorn
So often it is how people actually embrace it. And how they talk about that. If it’s still design, especially under the the framework of design thinking, which is, which is highly oversold by many consultants now as an one hour ideation session using post-it notes. And if they still understand design as that like it’s, it’s a creative process, it’s only about creating ideas. For me, that’s showing, reflecting that we’re still having a low design maturity. The higher we go up, the more people understand the value of research and prototyping.

And for me, these two elements are much more important than ideation. And if you then understand that prototyping is not just about creating one wireframe or one cardboard prototype, but actually it is an iterative process in itself, starting with low fidelity prototypes, developing into high fidelity prototypes, into contextual prototypes that you can test, with real users, with real employees, then moving on into piloting where you actually prototype, the launch phase and so on, then you’re reaching more maturity. It depends a little bit on how they talk about that where you get a good gut feeling of where they are right now.

Per Axbom
Because that’s the whole point, isn’t it that because prototyping is research, prototyping is ideation. Because it’s not linear. All of the process steps are constantly ongoing.

Marc Stickdorn
Correct.

Per Axbom
And that’s what you need to understand. So it’s not like, oh, yeah, we did this research phase. And now we stop interviewing. And then we go on to this. No, the next step is also about research and learning. So it’s constant.

Marc Stickdorn
You might not research problems anymore, but research, the future. Research lives and habits, it’s all research.

Per Axbom
So nothing ever stops. And even what you have, whatever you implement is a prototype for whatever comes next.

Marc Stickdorn
I was wondering that, that many years ago, I was invited to, to a project, and they actually, planned their research with a Gantt chart. So they had a daily standup, where they talked about the different research methods in the morning, and, and what was their goal, like 500 interviews and 250 home visits, and so on. And they checked, like how many else they needed. They didn’t even look at the data yet. They were just collecting, collecting, because in the Gantt chart, the first phase was data collection, the second phase was data analysis.

So they were just collecting, collecting, collecting many different methods, a huge team, it was it was massive. But then they were drowning in data. And that’s because they, they didn’t understand the iterative process of design, but they understood the model, they took it and then said, let’s make it real, let’s use many methods so we can triangulate and all that. But they lost the key power of design, which is iterations.

So when when you then actually slice the data and look at the data of let’s say, the first week, all the rest of the data collection was actually useless, because it just confirmed what they knew. They could have changed the research question, to learn more, to dig deep in certain aspects or whatever. But they were just confirming what they knew. So it was a huge waste of money and time actually.

James Royal-Lawson
I mean, it’s that similar kind of thing as well to when you, you create a very detailed journey map, as it as a starting point in the process. You’re locking yourself in to a very detailed artifact, when you should actually be still opening yourself up to, to learning to what’s going on.

Marc Stickdorn
That is something which is really, really close to my heart. So I stopped doing projects about five years ago, because I started a software company to develop software for service designers. And our key product is an web based software to do journey maps. And the whole idea of that is to free designers from investing a lot of time to creating beautiful deliverables. But rather have a very simple, rather simple solution, which still includes all the information that you need, but suddenly becomes accessible to the wider organization.

Marc Stickdorn
Because if you look how these beautiful artifacts are made, they’re often made in InDesign or similar tools, which means they’re not accessible for anyone else in the organization. They’re very exclusive, so others can’t change it, they can’t add to that. And that’s why the most used software to do journey maps in an organization is Microsoft Excel. It’s the most use software. The second most used software is Microsoft PowerPoint,

Per Axbom
I use PowerPoint.

Marc Stickdorn
There you go. So the reason for that is accessibility. They don’t need to be perfect, they need to be accessible. So that was was kind of my mission then to create something which is both accessible, and looking good enough sso we can actually work with that. And I think we should not waste time and creating beautiful deliverables, with the only exception that at some point, it might be useful as a communication tool, and for the wider organization, for example.

But that’s the only occasion when a beautiful artifact makes sense. For the design process itself, it doesn’t need to be beautiful. If you build a house, it’s important that the house is beautiful. But the hammer that you use to build this house can look like shit, you don’t care about that. It just needs to work.

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah, exactly. You shouldn’t, we don’t want to be precious about the tools we’re using on our own journey to help create something.

Per Axbom
It just needs to work. I think that’s an excellent ending point. Thanks for joining us, Marc.

Marc Stickdorn
Thanks for having me, it’s been fun.

Per Axbom
So I really liked this interview, I really liked how laid back Marc was. And I really liked how he, in the beginning said, it doesn’t matter what you call it. Because to be honest, sometimes I grow really, really tired of this dichotomy between UX and service design. And people say well, you’re in UX, you don’t understand service design, or UX is part of service design, or no, service side is part of UX.

For me, I’m coming out of a background of usability and interaction design, the reason UX even became a term is because we wanted to incorporate all the touch points of a service. So for me, UX has always been what service designers claim are service design to be. So, why even argue really, so I should, I shouldn’t put fuel on the fire either, either. But it’s just, it’s about problem solving, right? It’s about design. It’s what you said to me, when we were watching him. It’s just design.

James Royal-Lawson
It’s just design, but I think what you’re saying is quite right, and isn’t as connected to like spheres of influence, you know back in the day, when you were doing interaction design, you felt the need to broaden your spheres of influence. And that involved user experience design coming in closer contact with the the user with the testing the research, and then service design, I think is a further expansion of those spheres of influence that you want to go beyond that particular user experience and into the workings of the company and the and the wider spectrum of interactions that a customer and individual needs to make to complete what they need with your service.

Per Axbom
Right, but then you also have UX strategy, which is claims to do exactly that as well. And then you have someone coming along and saying, so it’s circular design, we’re taking into account everything outside the company as well. And people are trying to claim all these areas, it’s just aren’t we just trying to help each other out? Aren’t we just after the same thing?

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah. But they’re all kind of doing the same thing aren’t they. They’re trying to they’re trying to expand beyond one box into another box, and using and using terminology to help make that jump.

Per Axbom
Yeah, you’re probably right.

James Royal-Lawson
I think you’re right. I mean, it can be frustrating at times, when it starts to be a, my box is better than your box, because then we’re back to the silos again. But you know, there are good intentions there.

Per Axbom
And there are, you’re right, and and what Marc says is, don’t even use this terminology, find out what terminology that the people you’re working with the client uses and use that. Don’t get too attached to whatever you’re doing and say that you’re doing this, because what you’re doing is trying to get a beneficial outcome for you if you’re working at the company, for your client if you’re working for a client. It’s the outcome that matters not the name of the process along the way.

James Royal-Lawson
It’s excellent you mentioned that, because as Marc says in his talk about like ideation and workshops, which are for many, as he mentions in our interview, that in the less mature end of the scale, then just doing an ideation workshop is kind of the level you’re at, before you move up to more mature ways of working. And it says in his talk about how that is overrated. And and we should, we should do more of that kind of he uses the phrase, he says, always start with a shitty first draft. And that a shitty first draft or a very, very rough first draft, if you want to tone the language down just slightly, then that frees us from perfection. And in Marc’s talk he actually then shows a slide of his firstborn child.

Per Axbom
Oh, yes.

James Royal-Lawson
And the first and Marc’s child is wearing a T shirt that actually says ‘shitty first draft’ on it. Yeah, well, we can talk to Marc in, oh actually we can talk about Marc’s child in 15 years time. And yes, and ask about the psychological damage that T shirt and picture did to him or her, actually I’m afraid I don’t know the gender. But it’s good. It’s a good point that you know, even using your own child, to push the point that you know, free yourself from perfection, nothing’s ever going to be perfect. And really been. And bringing that up and talking about that saying this is just a first version. And we know we’re going to learn something from this, I think that is a very healthy thing to say.

Per Axbom
Yeah, don’t sit around talking about it just get something out there, get something that we can get feedback on. And that will be helpful. And because what he also says is nothing is ideal. We have all these high and mighty ideas of how UX and service design work should be done. And we see at these conferences, how it should be done. And then reality hits, it’s impossible to do it exactly the way we want it to.

And instead of complaining, just accept and move from that reality, and use it to your advantage. These shitty first drafts are an excellent idea for that and just accept that they are not the best first drafts. There’s something to learn from. So and also I mean, your own work process should always be under scrutiny. We’re talking to Marc here about there are different ways to solve the same problem. Find different ways to approach whatever you’re trying to do. You know what outcome you want. Brainstorm around how you’re going to reach that outcome.

James Royal-Lawson
Or you think you know what outcome you want, sometimes even that changes. But Marc uses in his presentation, that design squiggle, by Damien Newman, which starts off really messy you, you know it’s going all over the place.

And then the idea is as time goes on, the squiggle squiggles less and eventually becomes a flat line, implying that you’ve you’ve you’ve worked everything out, you’ve come to a conclusion. Or as Marc says, no, that isn’t reality. Reality is it actually stays as a squiggle. And and the squiggle maybe kind of becomes less squiggly, but sometimes it has kind of loops again, and kind of like blips cycles around itself, it does actually stay messy.

And I think I think that version of the design squiggle Marc shares is, is actually a more healthy want to show because it reminds you that you’re always on a kind of a draft, you’re always on a always, you’re always learning from what you’re doing to make the next version better. It’s never going to be completely flat and completely perfect.

Per Axbom
And something else he touches upon, speaking of fights, he talks about fights between design and management. And we hear about this sometimes, and I’m starting to realize that listening to Marc that it’s just a fight between egos, isn’t it?

Because it’s the same thing there. We want the same thing. Why are we fighting, because both parties have an idea of the right way to do things. Instead of agreeing upon the outcome, we’re trying to fight over who gets to do whatever artifact or delivery we’re talking about. We need to we need to move beyond that we need we need to understand that what we’re design and management are one together. Something that helps solve a problem. Yeah.

James Royal-Lawson
And that’s been the other way. Yes, yes, egos, but it’s also people, people have established ways of doing things or ways of thinking, and, you know, if you’re working a certain way management, or you know, planning, business planning, business strategy, and then a designer comes along, and then kind of turns the world upside down. Depending on how that’s communicated to the to the business or worked together with a business, you’re gonna you’re gonna have, you could have a rough journey. And some people do have really rough journeys, because they’re already frustrated. And they they clash then with the business, rather than working with the business to achieve a new positive outcome together.

Per Axbom
Exactly. Because I can I can understand from a management perspective that it’s hard, hard to actually understand when designers come and say that this isn’t working. And this it sounds to them, perhaps that it’s like, it’s not working because we did something bad. But instead approaching that as here’s something we can improve, not something that isn’t working.

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah. Shall we shall we share all 12 commandments about service design that Marc had in his presentation?

Per Axbom
Go ahead.

James Royal-Lawson
Do you want me to read all of you?

Per Axbom
Because I don’t I don’t have them

James Royal-Lawson
Oh in that case you’ve got no choice. I’m going to have to read them out aren’t I. So here they are. 12 points about service design.

1 – call it what you like, use the language you want to use.

2 – make shitty first drafts.

3 – you are a facilitator.

4 – doing not talking.

5 – ‘yes, but’ and ‘yes and’. Be careful, though, because, ‘yes aaand’ so ‘yes, but’ can close conversations down. I’m ad libbing a little bit here for my notes.

6 – find the right problem before solving it.

7 – prototype in the real world.

8 – don’t put all your eggs in one basket.

9 – it’s not about tools. It’s about changing reality. We are change agents, not creators of beautiful tools. I’ve lost I’ve lost track of which number I’m on. Do you know what number I said? I know I’m gonna I’m gonna say

10 – plan for iteration then adapt.

11 – zoom in and out.

12 – it’s all services, societies are total service system.

Don’t tell me off if I got the wrong numbers there.

Per Axbom
At first when I when I heard them. And also we should mention like, like Marc himself did it these are not his invention. It was a big team of people who came to gather to the to produce these commandments.

James Royal-Lawson
They all did little video clips and things, didn’t they.

Per Axbom
Yeah, where is listening and all this? And then I realized that I think it’s number three or four or something around there that it’s facilitation.

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah.

Per Axbom
And I think that’s a really big part of this to understand that, as designers, we have to be facilitators, we’ve talked about on the show before we have to be coaches. We have to be the people who help the rest of the organization understand how design thinking helps us move faster and more forward in the right direction.

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah, I think if there’s one there’s one kind of like overall summary we can we can take from from Marc’s interview and and what he said in the talk. It’s like it’s just let’s stop being snobby about our design.

Per Axbom
Yes.

James Royal-Lawson
When he said himself, people don’t care about service design. They just want their problems solved.

Per Axbom
Can’t agree more.

Per Axbom
So thanks for spending some time with us. Links and notes from this episode can be found as usual on uxpodcast.com if you can’t find them in your pod playing tool of choice.

James Royal-Lawson
And recommended listening after this. We’re going to go for Episode 93 where we talk amongst other things about journey mapping with Kim Goodwin, so we can learn how to do that and see whether, I haven’t listened I have to listen back to the episode with Kim to see how it how it fits in with what Marc said about journey mapping and and not being precious about it.

Per Axbom
Remember to keep moving.

James Royal-Lawson
See you on the other side.

Per Axbom
Knock knock.

James Royal-Lawson
Who’s there?

Per Axbom
Spell

James Royal-Lawson
Spell Who?

Per Axbom
Okay. w h. o.

James Royal-Lawson
You’re right! Well done.

This is a transcript of a conversation between James Royal-Lawson, Per Axbom and Marc Stickdorn. Recorded in May 2019 and published as Episode 210 of UX Podcast. 

This transcript has been machine generated and checked by Lizzie Hedges.