A transcript of S03E03, 311 of UX Podcast. James Royal-Lawson and Per Axbom talk to Christina Joy Whittaker about something she calls “the murky middle” where you are feeling misalignment in your life and work.
This transcript has been machine generated and checked by Lexa Gallery.
Transcript
Computer Voice
Season Three, episode three.
[Music]
Christina Joy Whittaker
I think that’s why it’s so important to understand that your value and your identity must be separate from your role. You know you were a person before you got that design job.
James Royal-Lawson
You’re listening to UX Podcast coming to you from Stockholm, Sweden, helping the UX community explore ideas and share knowledge for over a decade. We are your hosts, James Royal Lawson
Per Axbom
and Per Axbom.
James Royal-Lawson
With listeners in countries and territories all over the world, from Serbia to Luxembourg.
Per Axbom
Christina Joy Whitaker is a leadership expert, an award winning business and leadership strategist, as well as a TEDx speaker.
James Royal-Lawson
Christina is known for empowering and steering ambitious women and leaders towards higher impact, increased visibility and recognition and greater career and life satisfaction.
Per Axbom
At from business to buttons, she held a talk designed to disrupt defeating the imposter syndrome, during which she introduced us to the murky middle
James Royal-Lawson
let’s listen to our chat with Christina and find out what it can mean to find your true calling.
Per Axbom
I believe your talk Christina, really resonated with me because you introduced something I had not thought about at all, but which I think is a space where I find myself more often, in which is related to the imposter syndrome that we talked about on the show before, but something that you call the murky middle. How did those two concepts relate to each other?
Christina Joy Whittaker
Yeah, that’s a great question. So it occurred to me there was a difference between doubting your capability and feeling fraudulent as a result of that, versus understanding inherently that you do great work, that you are capable but still feeling out of place. That came to a head for me personally, when I was working in a corporate environment and I was saying, You know what? I know I’m great at my job. I get great marks, I’m doing all of these things, but I also still don’t feel like I belong here. Now sometimes, let’s be honest, sometimes our environments affirm that as being the case. But this was a little bit different. It’s not that I was in an environment that was telling me you don’t belong here, I just felt this pull to do something more significant. The issue I had, though, was that when I was communicating this discrepancy, everyone was telling me remedies that would treat the imposter syndrome.
So they would say, Oh, it’s okay. It’s just a confidence thing, lean in a lot more, or do more work. It was always do more, be more, all of those things. And it wasn’t that, I didn’t need to do anymore. I didn’t need to be anymore. What I actually needed to do was take a step back and reflect, is this where I’m supposed to be? Because that’s where I think people get stuck where they don’t ask themselves the question, they don’t give themselves to give a different answer in terms of, you know, what I think, where I feel called to looks different than where I am right now.
And that has to be okay. I have to accept that I’m allowed those feelings, and my only job is to be, to operate with integrity to those feelings, and even if it’s taking steps in the dark, even if it’s just, you know, being curious, seeing where I feel led, so I could really shift into that calling. And so in terms of the difference, I believe that imposter syndrome is very real feelings of fraudulence, because you know, you don’t necessarily feel like you’re you are up to par in terms of your capability. But the murky middle, I also kind of coin it imposter syndrome. 2.0 is that same feeling of fraudulence, but the base is not different. The root is inherently not different. It is not a doubting of capability. Now it’s, I just don’t feel like my existence is supposed to be here, and I and I need to figure out where that place needs to be for me.
James Royal-Lawson
So if I’ve, if I’m feeling like I’ve got one of these, what are the what the differences in telltale signs? Because you say that, you know, the advice you got given for imposter syndrome was kind of like, you know, the catch all cure for both of these things. So, how can I self assess which where I am of these two points?
Christina Joy Whittaker
I mean, I would say the most basic litmus test is if the things that you use typically to treat the imposter syndrome aren’t treating you, then you’re probably not dealing with the imposter syndrome. The closest thing I could relate it to, it’s this, almost this, knowing this, this almost divine nagging, where it’s like, you know, I don’t, I’m not sure why I don’t feel content in this place. And it’s not necessarily because anything is bad. Everything could actually look great for you. It’s just that you internally know that you want to help more people or make some sort of transformation. You may not know how. You may not know in what context, but to be quite honest, that doesn’t matter. It’s just the fact that it exists and that, you know, okay, that means now I have to at least start looking for opportunities for that. It doesn’t have to be the perfect next step. You just have to be open to it coming. And I do believe you opening yourself up to the probability that, or the possibility that, hey, I think something else is out there for me, allows it to come to you more freely, allows it to actually… it marks you as ready to even entertain opportunities that allow you to shift to that space of significance.
James Royal-Lawson
So, yeah, so with imposter syndrome, I guess you, you get to a point where you accept you are truly good at what you’re doing, and then what you saying with the murky middle, though, is I’m actually accepting my true calling.
Christina Joy Whittaker
Exactly, exactly. And I believe your calling is where your story meets your purpose, right? Where the things that you have done, the things that you have built, meet why you are actually here, right? It almost gives context to, this is why I did those things, or this is why I’m wired that way. It affirms, authentically who you are supposed to become. And it’s, it’s a diff. I won’t say it’s a difficult concept to explain, but it’s something that you have to be very okay with some level of uncertainty, which, to be quite honest, that was incredibly antithetical to who I was as a person. So when it kind of hit me, that’s why it was so resonating. And I had to figure out what, what context can I give to this? Because I was doing all of the things.
I was always a good student. I was, you know, a top employee, I got the hard to place jobs. I was also always in Fortune, 100 companies. I was in boardrooms that other people really coveted. I was in those spaces for my entire life. Fun story. I remember when I was about 12 or 13 years old, I tried to get a normal job as a camp counselor, and I distinctly remember the director of the Parks and Recreation Center where I was at, she told me, you don’t need to be a camp counselor. You can have my job I was, I was a pre teen, and so this has been the arc of my life, you know, where I have always been getting these positions and being put then put in these places.
James Royal-Lawson
How did you, I mean, you said you were, like, 12 years. How did you take that feedback at that moment in time?
Christina Joy Whittaker
I believed her. I believed her. I said, you know, you probably, you’re probably right. It didn’t solve my problem for the summer. I needed summer money, you know, I was trying to get a job to be a responsible student, but I can’t, I can’t tell you the amount of quote, unquote, normal jobs that I signed up for that I could never get, because people would look at my resume and say, Nope, you needed a higher level job. You need a different job.
Per Axbom
Super interesting and it’s about the ladder, then people are expecting you to climb.
Christina Joy Whittaker
Exactly. And so that happened a lot in my youth. You know, obviously in adulthood, I was in, I was more so right fitted. But even in those roles, even when I entered into the corporate sphere, mentally and in terms of my ability, I was always, I always operated as I do now. I always operated as a leader. I always operated kind of as an executive. But this is where imposter syndrome showed up for me. Those positions didn’t allow me to do that, and so because I wasn’t good at the base level, I thought something was wrong with me. I’m like, why can’t I make this click, like I don’t belong here. That’s when I did doubt my capability, but my capability wasn’t where it needed to be. I was operating about five levels ahead of me, even though I was an entry level person.
Per Axbom
Right. So why I said it resonated with me is because I can often feel that I’m in this place where I’ve been for a long time and I’m appreciated. So as you’re saying, there’s nothing wrong, but I keep feeling that I’m fighting this fight because something is off. Yes, I’m not. So when you said, Well, maybe your just in the wrong place, you realize what? Hey, hang on. Maybe I don’t have to fight the fight. Maybe I don’t have to try and make things better where I. Am, but actually can choose something else.
Christina Joy Whittaker
That’s, I think that’s a decision that’s very scary for people, right? Because we don’t see ourselves a lot of times in those brand new contexts where it would look like to transfer everything that we’ve built up in terms of equity at an organization and taking it someplace else. I say I’m, I’m Person Number one, I am a person who always thought I would be traditionally employed in corporate environments. I like stability. I liked my nine to five. I like my check every two weeks. I had no desire to go into an entrepreneurial role.
It wasn’t until I was actually faced with the layoff, and it was the first time I had ever not immediately had a plan, and even though it took me off guard, I felt relief, and it made me question, why did I wait for someone else to relieve me from something that was clearly making me miserable, that was clearly causing me to become a shell of myself. I needed to wait for permission, for someone to say, you’re laid off, to give myself the grace. That was a hard pill to swallow, and it was in that interim where I had the beauty of a mentor who took no sympathy on me and said, you know, your safety net isn’t so safe if someone can take it from you, so what are you going to do?
And so right around that time, I started learning about speaking. I started learning about coaching, and I made tons of mistakes, but I said, I think I want to do this. I think I want to build my own business. I think I want to be a speaker. I think I want to go into thought leadership. I really, you know, I had a good framework to have a blueprint off of, but really, until you’re in it, you don’t know what you’re doing. And I had to give myself a lot of permission and a lot of grace to step into what I felt called to, even though I was taking those steps in the dark, even though there was no evidence of success, even though there’s… it was very different from what I saw myself as decades prior.
I never saw myself in this capacity, but I had to give myself the grace to evolve, to say, You know what? I think this is the direction we’re supposed to go. You know, I’m gonna pray, I’m gonna use my faith, I’m gonna use my steps, I’m gonna use my action, I’m gonna use everything to get myself forward, and I’m going to trust that my steps will be redirected just because of me acting with integrity, because I do believe this is the direction I’m supposed to go. Not to say it was easy, but it is paid off. It has been worthwhile, and I can confidently say now that I’m on a path where I understand who I am called to help and what significance I’m bringing in the world. And despite all the bells and whistles of every position I had before, I could never say that.
James Royal-Lawson
I think, I think the clarity that you’re exuding so you’re giving off now is fantastic. Thinking about the design industry. I mean, we’re, it’s an industry that has, especially in UX design, there’s a lot of females, it’s, it’s the balance between genders is, is skewed towards females, and that, from the research, is a group that suffers from imposter syndrome at a higher rate than men. And so female designers imposter syndrome. And then we also know that in the design world that there’s that desire to do good, so in our industry, we’ve got a kind of toxic combination, I guess, of, of people who are burning to do good design for good and suffering from imposter syndrome because they don’t feel like they deserve the credit they do for the things they actually do and so on.
Christina Joy Whittaker
Yeah, I think the design industry, similar to some other service or good industries, like teaching or, you know, things of that nature, I think there’s an interesting dynamic of wanting all of you and none of you at the same time. There’s a need for… for instance, if you’re working in a firm or something like that, they want all of your creativity. They want all of the things, but they also want to control it wholly, right? And so it’s this constant tug and pull where you feel like you’re giving only spurts and pieces of yourself, right? Which does it inherently, It makes you feel compromised as a person. It makes you feel fact fractured, or as you’re always acquiescing to the whims of someone else, and depending on where you are working, depending on you know, your level, depending on your output, that starts to wear on you after a certain amount of time.
I think that’s why it’s so important to understand that your value and your identity must be separate from your role and your position, because it’s so easy to intertwine them, but you have to separate them out. You know, you were a person before you got that design job. You were a person before you got that degree. And so understanding that there, you have to still keep that intact. Now, this can grow your identity, this could open your eyes to different things, but no organization, no title, owns it. And so I think when people are in fields like design, where it’s this beautiful mixture of art as well as science and technology, of kind of all in one, they want the best of you, but they also want to empty you, and you have to be very wary of that.
Per Axbom
What you said about being laid off, I feel like I’ve heard that story so many times, and I remember it from early 2000s working at Ericsson, and there were a lot of people laid off from Ericsson.
James Royal-Lawson
I was one of them.
Per Axbom
And a lot of people ended up going into completely different industries. Someone became a musician, because that’s what they always wanted. So it triggers something, but you don’t want to wait, as you said, to get laid off, but how can it help you trigger that in another way?
Christina Joy Whittaker
I think that’s a good question. In all candor, some of us will never move unless forced, right? I was definitely that person, unless someone forced my hand, I could have said all day, oh, well, I’ll do this on the side, I’ll invest… I would never have done it. I know me, however I do, I think that’s a valid question, because not everyone’s wired the same, and so I think if you do have inclinations that, you know what, I feel like. I have a greater calling. I feel like I’m supposed to be doing something else. What I always say is operate through a lens of curiosity and hope. One curiosity, understanding that it doesn’t have to look a particular way. Try different things that are adjacent. Try different things to see how you like it. Volunteer for projects, you know, start having informational interviews. Talk to people, you know, try your hand at what you think you are called to, and see what doors open, see what naturally opens. But also don’t do it with the sense of feeling as if everything’s going to be a failure just because it looks different.
So that’s why I say you have to have a dose of hope as well, understanding that this is going to be fuel for you. This is going to be something that allows you to breathe life and giving yourself the permission for things not to work, but to also still iterate and try again. And so I would say, to answer your question concisely, try your hand at different things, whatever you feel called to pay attention to, start studying it, start looking for opportunities to learn more about it, or get ingrained in it, or meet people who are doing what you think you might want to do, and see if they can mentor you, see if they can work with you. See if you actually like the thing that you think you are liking. Test it out. Pressure test it, right? I think that’s an element to it, but also just understanding that it can come so many different ways.
So that could be in your spare time. You know that could be on your job. I would also do an inventory of my friends and family, people who know me best, see what they ask you for all the time. You know, a lot of times, people under understand our gifts before we add credibility to it. They see what it is. They may not call it, but if they’re always asking you to do a spreadsheet, or if they’re, if you’re the family planner, and you’re always planning the trips and all of that, there people only ask you things that they value, right? So see what people are valuing from you, because more than likely you are doing it so naturally and not even thinking about it, and you’re making all this transformation, and you discredit it because it’s easy for you. Just because it’s easy doesn’t mean it’s not valuable. Doesn’t mean it’s not what you were meant to do. In fact, a lot of the times it points to something that you probably should be doing.
Per Axbom
This reminds me of how I even got into this industry. Because what I mean computing? Yeah, I had it. I had a computer since I was eight years old, and to me, it was second nature, and I didn’t realize how valuable it was to other people.
Christina Joy Whittaker
Yes
Per Axbom
I can do this in my sleep. How can it possibly be valuable for someone? And it’s really interesting.
James Royal-Lawson
But I did actually because, I mean, I had a computer from I was nine. So you were, you were younger than me when you got a computer, but, I mean, I remember realizing there was some kind of value, because I used to get called into other classes when I was at like primary school by the teachers, because they couldn’t work out how the… this is the 80s, they couldn’t work out how to use the computer. So I used to get dragged out of my lesson to go and help the teacher fix it, because they they couldn’t ask another teacher, I was the one that…
Per Axbom
You were already doing their job.
James Royal-Lawson
Yeah, yeah.
Christina Joy Whittaker
I think it happens a lot of times, even in my business now, you know, I started out doing career coaching, I was helping people double their salaries. I was doing all of this, but I was doing that during my lunch breaks and after work and not even thinking… I didn’t know that was even a career. I didn’t even know people did that. I did that so naturally and so, like I said, we discredit our own value a lot of the times because it comes so easy. But just because it comes easy doesn’t mean it’s not something we shouldn’t be paying attention to. So I would, you know, take inventory, take stock, and it’s then, it’s your responsibility to just say, Okay, this is what it’s worth. This is the value attached to it, because if you let people also just drain your gift dry, then you’re probably going to become embittered about it, right? And so understanding how to steward it as well, because if it’s yours, right, you have to understand how to take care of it, how to grow it, how to expand it. How do you continue to make it sustainable so that it doesn’t, doesn’t run you. In a sense.
James Royal-Lawson
That’s a really good point, because when I was thinking about the the separation there between, you know, your gifts, what you’re good at, and your hobbies and your work, so it’s like, I guess that’s a balance there, because some of the things I really enjoy, I consider to be hobbies, and they could be classed as, like gifts, callings, and maybe something I would do, but the same time, you know, would I want to do that as a profession? No, I want that as my box, my hobby to kind of like separate me from my profession
Christina Joy Whittaker
I that’s valid,I think we, I think people do rush to to feel like, oh, just because I’m gifted at something, I need to make money off of it. While you can, you definitely can. You don’t have to. You know, there’s no rules to say that you have to do that, you can keep it as a hobby. But I think what’s important to understand is, especially if something is like a divine gift, it’s the transformation, that’s what you look for, right? Because typically, people are attached to it. So it’s that, it’s the transformation, even if it’s so simple, even if it’s fixing a computer, you don’t know what mental load you might have lifted off of someone who was struggling for hours to try to figure something out. Perhaps that mental load was brought on by like, family issues at home, like you don’t know what transformation you actually created in a person. And so that’s where we have to start paying attention, because it’s not commonplace, especially if something was given to you, it’s for a reason. And so it’s supposed to create transformation in that way, whether we realize it or not.
Christina Joy Whittaker
It’s beautifully put. And I think what you’re saying about it, you don’t know what it looks like. That’s so important as well, because when you hear the word calling, and you’re sort of influenced by popular media, and you’re thinking calling that has to be something huge.
Per Axbom
Something big that impacts the whole world, but it can be something tiny. And now, when you said that about how it can affect someone else and be transformational, wow.
Christina Joy Whittaker
A calling is an assignment, right? It’s an assignment for you to do something during that season. Callings change, you know, depending on what season you’re in, maybe, for instance, I can give a lot of help right now, but, you know, when I have five kids at home or something like that, it’s not the same, right? So I’m not called to do something, maybe to the same capacity. So I think not feeling locked in and understanding that this isn’t, you know, trying to right size you into something that’s never going to change. Now, your purpose will always be the same, but what you are called to do during different seasons, it depends, right?
But it’s paying it, I think this is why it intersects so nicely with our work, because it does take you paying attention to, what is it saying right now? Where do I need to be positioned right now? Where am I supposed to add value at, in this particular moment that’s going to help others in some way, or that’s going to involve others? Because typically, it’s outside of yourself. It’s not just for you. It’s for you to help with other people or help transform.
Per Axbom
Right, because it doesn’t have to be, oh, I have to find a thing that I’m going to do for the rest of my life.
Christina Joy Whittaker
Yes
Per Axbom
Because it can keep changing.
Christina Joy Whittaker
Exactly. And I think that’s why people are so scared to even make that first step, to even entertain it, because it’s like, I don’t want to change all course forever. You don’t have to.
James Royal-Lawson
Yeah, also, that just underlines the importance of that self reflection, self understanding, to learn how to see your calling, so you can keep an eye on your calling and adjust when it adjusts.
Christina Joy Whittaker
Exactly, and when it’s time for you to move on to something else, it’s time. I truly believe when I was in the corporate sector. I was called for that time. However, when I got laid off, I also knew that I was growing weary. It was showing, signs in my body were showing, you know, I actually happened to be in a very toxic work environment, and hair started falling out of my head. I started having these panic attacks. I felt deteriorating, but I wouldn’t move right, because I wasn’t, I was scared. I was like, where am I gonna go? I went to school for this. What else am I supposed to do? I really didn’t know. And because I didn’t know that answer, I didn’t have the courage to take any steps in the dark. I like, like I said, I speak to me. I know exactly where I was at and so. I knew when the calling was up because there were signs. I fell out of love with it. I didn’t like it anymore. I just felt so closed in. But I had painted such a pretty picture. You know, I had the great company, I had the great salary, I had all the great perks, and I didn’t want to give it up, but that same pretty picture was literally killing me, not worth it.
James Royal-Lawson
Anxiety caused by the social pressures or expectations on you and what you were doing.
Christina Joy Whittaker
Yeah
Per Axbom
Trying to end on a positive note, that’s heavy. I mean
Christina Joy Whittaker
it’s heavy but it’s possible.
Per Axbom
But the positive is that it has. It has changed for you. I mean that.
Christina Joy Whittaker
It absolutely has.
Per Axbom
Your story is really inspiring.
Christina Joy Whittaker
I will say that everything, what’s interesting is that as as my calling was up, right, and and as it’s like, okay, it is clearly time to shift, all those things I was villainized for. I am now paid and praised for, in operating in my calling. When people said I was quick to judge I absolutely am, that is true, but I’m also very right. I make no apologies for it. I am. You can ask anyone in my circle, I am quick and I am right, and I get paid to be quick and right with my clients right now, I am very… I was very thorough, you know, in my previous career, I am and they were like, Oh, can you shorten it? Can you do that? They pay me to be thorough right now. So everything, I was kind of villainized for when the time was up. Now has a home.
Per Axbom
Oh, I love it.
James Royal-Lawson
Fantastic.
Per Axbom
Thank you, Christina.
Christina Joy Whittaker
Thank you. I appreciate you all for having me.
Per Axbom
It was so much fun listening back to this interview, because just this past weekend, I was reading a story about a man in his 50s, so same age as me, who was laid off from his job. So there’s that trigger again, being laid off, and he had decided, he was a marketing manager at a large company, and he had decided now to re school himself and become a nurse. And I, as I was reading the story, and now as I was listening back to Christina’s, our interview with Christina, it was so cool to hear how it all fit with what she was describing. How he had come to this realization when he was laid off, and now was pursuing something that was more core to his values and aligned with his values, and more something that he understood that I am now in a position where I can help people, and I can see, it makes sense to me. I’m not doubting if I’m helping people. I can see I’m helping people. So it was, it was just very clear to him,
James Royal-Lawson
It’s a wonderful example. I think, though, that’s the type of example, that is the, I suppose, the classic manifestation of this, that you would, you would have a moment of revelation and change career. You’d pivot. But I think, well, listening to our chat with Christina as well, it doesn’t necessarily have to be that drastic. You can, you can have that moment of revelation and find or look at your true calling, have the distance, a perspective to look upon what you have been doing to work out where value is, and you could actually just tweak course. You could change role without changing career, and still manage to give yourself more of a feeling that you were no longer in the murky middle, over following your true calling
Per Axbom
Exactly or even, or even stay in the same job, but find… I’m thinking now of people who want to work with charities and help them, because they realize that it’s so much more clear that I’m making a difference. I can see the impact in a completely different way than I usually can when I do my normal job.
James Royal-Lawson
And there you could be that you find the organization you want to work with, but maybe the organization doesn’t live up to your expectations once you’re inside it
Per Axbom
right
James Royal-Lawson
So it could be that you, oh, that’s also a revelation, and you then pursue a role with integrity and determination within the organization to put them on a better path than they originally were before you joined them.
Per Axbom
I really liked also how she she put it, you don’t have to be in a hurry. You just have to realize that there is something here that’s a bit off. I want to pursue something else, and that means you’re opening a door to saying yes to something else. And you may not have opened that door. You may not be ready to say yes, unless you’ve just acknowledge that there’s something here that’s off. I want to do something different, so now I’m open to doing something different, and something may just arrive because of that.
James Royal-Lawson
I think this is a difficult area. I mean, the whole thing of sensing when, when it’s confidence and imposter syndrome, or when it’s actually just things are not aligned, that you aren’t you aren’t doing quite the right thing. I mean, we’re, I think there are always going to be times where you don’t necessarily 100% agree with something you’re doing at work. You know, that happens, and that’s why we have things called compromise like you, know you have meetings discussions, and then you come to a compromise. It usually means that someone’s backed down a little bit off whatever position they had and and that’s fine, as long as it doesn’t grate too hard against your core values
Per Axbom
Exactly
James Royal-Lawson
If it does, then you’re going to have a, you can a.. you’re going to feel bad
Per Axbom
Right, So if you’re constantly compromising against your core values, then you will realize, hopefully, that something is off
James Royal-Lawson
Yeah, something will break, I think.
Per Axbom
But then you can also, I love her use of the word, seasons, in that you can you can try something for a bit, or you can have a calling that you do for a season, however long a season can be. I guess that’s up to yourself as well. And just this really good point about whatever I want to try and pursue, which I can sort of experiment with as well, it doesn’t have to be the thing I do for the rest of my life. I can try it out and see how I feel about it, I think I want to do this, so I’m going to do it for a while.
James Royal-Lawson
I love the natural aspect when she says seasons and it becomes cyclical. It becomes something that, yes, that that you, that is natural. It happens, it begins and it ends. There’s nothing bad about it. It’s nothing forced about it. This is just normal, and puts your, I suppose, your career path, in perspective. You think about your career as a series of seasons and, oh, repeated, repeated collection of seasons, years, if you want to come like that, but I didn’t want to use years, because I don’t want to think of careers in years. But, Yeah, it maybe helps you realize that, I mean, I was thinking about… it’s okay that we have different focuses at different times, just like you say at the seasons. And at times you have a particular, I don’t know, shop front, that you display outward a certain property, characteristic, something, or job title
Per Axbom
Something other people see you as, or call you by name or title.
James Royal-Lawson
Yeah, and it doesn’t necessarily mean all the other things you’ve done disappear, you are…
Per Axbom
That’s a huge part of it, isn’t it, that who you are becoming and who you want to be when you try and find your calling that’s based on all of those things that you have called yourself or done or experienced or decided that are important to you
James Royal-Lawson
Yeah, I love how she said that, you know, you were a person before your role, which is, which is really comforting actually, to think like that, that you know, it’s times, especially if you’re working hard, You’re working a lot intensively. There’s pressure on, you can, I think it’s easy to forget that you, you are a person or were a person before this moment.
Per Axbom
It’s always that question at dinner parties, isn’t it, what do you work with? And sort of defines you in many aspects,
James Royal-Lawson
Yeah, and very often we as obviously designers, we struggle with that question.
Per Axbom
Yes, exactly. See, I mean, when you were saying about natural lens, how it relates to seasons, she was also saying how some things come so naturally to us that we do things without even thinking about it. So in that sense, natural, and making the point that just because it’s easy doesn’t mean it’s not valuable. So that that struck me really well, made me think a lot about the things that have become easy to me but are still very, very valuable to a lot of the people I work with.
James Royal-Lawson
So looping back to the way I kind of flippantly said that we as digital designers often have difficulty answering that question about what we do. I wonder if that is actually because of the immaturity of what we do as an industry and, you know, the labels, the boxes, the processes, the organizations, they’re they, they aren’t really aligned with the special power that we have, and
Per Axbom
Oh, interesting. And the way that, when you say immaturity, it means that the way we work hasn’t caught up with our strengths
James Royal-Lawson
Yeah, and how we feel and what we’re trying to achieve. I mean, we said in the interview about how, you know, many, lot of designers want to do good. I mean, they want to make designs better for the… there’s a human side of things. We’re always talking about the kind of human centred design and kind of putting the user at the center of it, and accessibility and all these things that are empathy, all these things about people. And you know, we complain a lot about things that aren’t working as we expect. And I wonder if that we were all itching, this itch of our core values are about people, and all of us, I’m generalizing that, but you know, a lot of us, we do have that people connection and the world we’re working in isn’t quite aligned to it.
Per Axbom
Such a good point, something to ponder upon before we all change roles
James Royal-Lawson
I suppose, when it comes to recommend listening, we’ve actually had a couple of episodes now that do touch on, or even focus on, imposter syndrome going back many years. But I pulled out one of the ones from the archive to recommend, and that’s episode 276, I’ll use that number. That was actually the time we repeated it, but it’s probably the easiest one. If you scrolling back, then that’s probably one you’re going to reach first rather than going way back to 100 something. But this was, banish your inner critic with Denise Jacobs.
Per Axbom
Oh, yeah, nice. That was a fun interview, and she, I remember, she, she, made us do exercises when she did her talk on stage.
James Royal-Lawson
Yes, she did. That was really good fun that she was. It was proper keynote with live interaction.
Per Axbom
Remember to keep moving.
James Royal-Lawson
See You on the other side.
[Music]
James Royal-Lawson
Per, I’ve got loads of jokes about unemployed people we could use in the outro.
Per Axbom
Jokes about unemployed people you can use in the outro.
James Royal-Lawson
Yeah, it’s a real shame, though, none of them work.
This is a transcript of a conversation between James Royal-Lawson, Per Axbom, and Christina Joy Whittaker recorded in May 2024/January 2025 and published as episode 311 (S03,E03) of UX Podcast.