James Royal-Lawson
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Computer voice
UX Podcast, Episode 243.

[Music]

Per Axbom
Hello. I’m Per Axbom.

James Royal-Lawson
And I’m James Royal-Lawson.

Per Axbom
And this is UX Podcast. We’re in Stockholm, Sweden, and you’re listening in 194 countries all over the world from Palestine to Denmark.

James Royal-Lawson
From time to time, we bring you a repeat show. This is an episode from our extensive back catalogue resurfacing some of the ideas and thoughts from the past that we believe are still relevant and well worth revisiting.

[Music]

Per Axbom
Caroline Jarrett, welcome to the show.

Caroline Jarrett
Hi, it’s a pleasure to be here.

Per Axbom
Where are you located at right now?

Caroline Jarrett
I’m in a little town called Leighton Buzzard which is just like the bird, B-U-Z-Z-A-R-D.

James Royal-Lawson
You’ve got to love British place names their — driving around the UK it’s fantastic just looking all the signs. I mean there are some great Swedish ones as well to be honest but you’ve got to understand Swedish to get the most benefit from them.

Per Axbom
But the pronunciation is not always obvious either.

Caroline Jarrett
Well, that’s as you probably know, I’m I’m a form specialist and whenever I encounter a US website that insists I put on a state, US state. I always choose Arkansas because it seems to me that a town called Buzzard would be in Arkansas and Arkansas is at the top of the alphabet as well. And the UK post office really doesn’t seem to mind if the address has a random AR for Arkansas. And then I complain about that to my American friends and they point out that British sites are just as pedantic about forcing them to put in UK postcodes. So it’s a classic internationalisation problem.

James Royal-Lawson
It’s the exact same thing with Swedish as I go international and the whole way postcodes is split up. It’s um

Per Axbom
I always choose Michigan because I have friends there.

Caroline Jarrett
Exactly.

James Royal-Lawson
So we all have our little techniques and patterns that we follow when we’re doing this kind of stuff.

Per Axbom
Right? But that is a perfect segue into why we are having you on the show Carolina is because you are forms and service specialist and you’ve been working with forms. I don’t know. I found somewhere it said for 15 years or something.

Caroline Jarrett
No, no. 20. 20.

James Royal-Lawson
20!

Per Axbom
20 years! Wow!

Caroline Jarrett
More than 20! I started my — I just had the 20th birthday of Effortmark Ltd last month. Yeah. And I’ve been specialising in forms for beyond — before that. Before I actually started the business. So more than 20 years of being completely overexcited and interested in forms.

James Royal-Lawson
Oh. So your background is — you’ve even been working with — or you work with non digital forms as well then

Caroline Jarrett
Oh, sure! Yeah, I date back —you know, when I started dinosaurs roamed the earth and we didn’t have any internet. So to be honest, I actually started in computer systems. So before I got into what we called human computer interaction in those days, keeps changing its name. I keep doing the same stuff but it keeps changing name. I was a project manager, software engineer and a project manager in computer systems. So a lot of my work — the reason I got into forms was that I was a project manager delivering optical character recognition systems to the Inland Revenue as it was called at that time.

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah. The tax authority.

Caroline Jarrett
The tax authorities, yes. They wanted to scan tax forms obviously to save typing. And the sad part was that the systems really didn’t work at all well, and I got permission to go and find out what was actually happening in the various tax offices. And I discovered that the forms were filled in extremely badly. So there was no way that my computer system was ever going to deal with a form where someone had written, “Please read attached letter”. That just wasn’t going to happen. So I then became really interested in “Well, how do we design the form so that they’re filled in accurately?” because then my computer system would work and I just became completely interested in how do you make forms easy to fill in. And there you go as I said, it’s a fascination that shows no signs of wearing off.

James Royal-Lawson
It’s when you mention, one of my first jobs that I did in that bit after university was data entry for British Gas. When they come with these piles of well completed work orders, I guess — when the engineers have been out and done things for people’s gas metres and so on and that was just the things you’ve got back on these pieces of paper was crazy. And you sat there and you had to fill them all into the system. So straightaway, you see that problem of humans, paper, data entry.

Caroline Jarrett
And these days, I still completely recommend work observation to people. You know, go and watch people actually deal with the stuff. And you’ll learn an enormous amount and you — and in particular, I love a post room. I love going to visit the post room, and will indeed get up at 5am because a lot of large organisations like to open their post at times like 6am, so that all the workers have the piles of post ready and waiting for them. And you meet interesting nice people in the post room and you learn an awful lot about how forms actually arrive and what they really look like. Again, there’s a great story —You know, back in the day, the Revenue was thinking about using scanning for all their posts and went to the post room and there was amazing things turned up in the post. For example, a box of uniforms arrived, I was like, “How are you going to scan the uniforms, exactly?”. So the rule was that if a uniform had to be inspected by a tax officer to assess whether it was purely a uniform and therefore could not be used as normal clothing, because if you could wear the uniform as everyday clothing, then it was a taxable benefit.

James Royal-Lawson
Oh!

Caroline Jarrett
You know, just great.

Per Axbom
Yeah. Fantastic. Yeah.

Caroline Jarrett
So paper, computer systems, and then the internet came along and web forms and that was really cool, because you could get people to type stuff in on their computer rather than having people type it in for them and so much more efficient and wonderful. And so many new and interesting, exciting ways for people to mess up their forms, which they carry on doing. Yeah.

Per Axbom
Of course best case scenario, I mean you can always — if you find that the form isn’t working, you can change it much faster than if you have 1000 copies of it.

Caroline Jarrett
Absolutely. And you can also make an awful lot of people really upset because there’s no way that they could write on the edge of the form. I don’t know what button to click. Just today, you know, today I tweeted an example where I happen to have a small problem with my foot and I went to see the podiatrist, as they call the foot doctor. And he said, “Well you need these special type of insoles”, and he gave me a pair and they’re great. He said, “Order some spares”. So I went onto the website to order some spares and it gave me two buttons to click, neither of which apply to me. What did I do? You know, I need to buy the stuff I need to get them from the manufacturer. The choice was, “Are you a private practitioner or another type of practitioner?” and there was no button or anything to do if you were just a normal person. And I was stuck. So, you know –

James Royal-Lawson
I suppose you could stretch it to other, yeah.

Caroline Jarrett
Yeah, there was there was nothing. And I rang them up. And they said, “Oh, yes, we have a completely different website for the general public”. I just thought, well, it would save you a lot of time and trouble if you had put that information on the ‘Contact Us’ page, or indeed on the registration page.

James Royal-Lawson
But that’s something that happens. I remember, I think it was last year I ordered some — I think it was some timers, children’s timers —some of these kind of big colourful timers you have at schools to say “You’ve got five minutes left”, and then turn it over. And the website I bought them from it was really hard work ordering and I kind of thought this just feels really odd and wrong. And then it took up to age for things to come. I think it took like four or five weeks and I kept ringing up and I kept getting real nice people apologising to me and saying, “I’m really sorry it’s taking so long. They’ve just missed your order again.” Something’s not right. So eventually I got to speak to the director of this company. And he explained to me that basically I was pretty much the first public — no, private person who’d ordered anything from the company website. Previously they’d been education-only, only selling to schools. As it turned out was that their stock room guys and how the system was built, just wasn’t at all prepared for this other channel in, that people could — private people could order it. So they were prioritising these bulk orders for all the schools and leaving all the private individuals with only wanting one or two in a pile, and was just kind of like we’ll do it when the next lot of orders go and that’s when all there supply comes in. So it was just never getting fulfilled but none of this was apparent to me. It just looked like a normal website with a few quirks but you can tell these kind of things when you work within the business you would feel — the force says this isn’t gonna work well.

Caroline Jarrett
It’s such a great story because it just goes to show that some of the old fashioned techniques that I used in the 1980s of going and observing people working are still important. Even though we think it’s all internet, in the end, an awful lot of this is actually comes down to people in a warehouse or going and watching them work can tell you an enormous amount. We often need to get out of our offices and meet the people who are doing the real work. And then that can make life so much more efficient. And these days of course — I’ve been doing that forever but these days it tends to be called something like journey mapping or touch point analysis or pain point. People keep changing the terms, but it’s still just down to basic common sense watching people work and having a think about it.

Per Axbom
It is, isn’t it? I love that what you said before, that I keep doing the same stuff, but it’s just changes its name. And that is really, really true.

James Royal-Lawson
Didn’t it use to be called — was it time and motion studies?

Per Axbom
Exactly.

Caroline Jarrett
It did.

James Royal-Lawson
Many decades ago.

Per Axbom
Yes.

Caroline Jarrett
Yeah.

Per Axbom
I actually gave a talk on that recently.

James Royal-Lawson
Recently?

Per Axbom
Where I used that example. Yeah, motion study. With Taylor and the Gilbreths. You know, the book in the film where they have a dozen children. It’s actually based on the couple that started in time studies back in the Taylor days. And he had an example where he was observing bricklayers. And the bricklayers were bending down each time to grab a brick and put it on the wall. He invented something that — well something that would hold the bricks for him. That he didn’t have to bend down and they saved like 80% of time based on the motion studies and what he came up with. Just observing patients in a room or during an operation, observing a doctor during an operation. They were the couple that actually determined that, oh my God, this doctor needs to ask for the instruments from a nurse so that it doesn’t have to walk back and forth to the table and get those instruments. So those people, based on those observations are the reason that why operations are performed in that way today. That is pretty cool actually.

James Royal-Lawson
It is.

Caroline Jarrett
It is. It’s great.

James Royal-Lawson
We all do nothing but optimise. We’re just constantly optimising everything we do. We call it design don’t we but we’re optimising.

Caroline Jarrett
Well, there’s that. That’s us as designers, I guess. But what happens is that the people tend to satisfice rather than optimise, you know that they’ll do what they can to get through the day. So the person that was observed picking up the book, that was a satisficing. That wasn’t — it was because that person needed to get that job done and was just muddling through. We see that behaviour all the time of people simply muddling through situations and then they get used to it. So this is another reason why we have to do the observation because they forget — they just do the work that they do. They don’t have to recall it or think about it or do anything other than do their jobs, so going and observing them. It’s interesting that we’re talking about some of the historic research because one of the things that’s absolutely fascinating me about the field of surveys is that it’s filled with a tremendously long literature. So, one of the most cited and actually most interesting papers in the world of survey methodology is the famous Rensis Likert paper from 1932. Which is the one that talks about what’s now known as Likert scales or Likert response formats and there’s an interestingly fine distinction between those two.

Per Axbom
Oh I’ve always pronounced that as Likert. Now I hear what you’re saying. Yes.

Caroline Jarrett
I believe that Mr. Likert calls it “Likert”. I shall just have to double check.

Per Axbom
You’re probably right. I probably just read it everywhere, and I just pronounced it Likert scale.

James Royal-Lawson
One of the problems we have being — Well, speaking lots of English in Sweden, but not always having English-speaking input. We sometimes just make them up.

Caroline Jarrett
Well, and who can say how a name is pronounced in English until you ask the person themselves. You have no chance really. Yeah, so that just goes to show there’s been surveys going for a long time. And I got into the whole world of surveys because I was looking for what research had been done in forms and discovered that consistently people really haven’t researched forms they’ve just assumed — I don’t know why they don’t research them but they don’t. But the survey methodologists have done enormous amounts of research and continue to do so. So practically every country I mean, there’s 190 odd, different national statistical institute’s listed on the United Nations website, for example. Virtually every country in the world has a central statistical authority. Majority of official statistics arise from surveys. So there’s survey methodology going on at a national, international level has been for decades, centuries even. Enormous amount of interesting literature all of which is — a lot of which is about how do people answer questions, how they think about questions, how to get better answers to questions. So all of that’s very interesting for forms and that’s kind of how I got into surveys sort of by accident really, because that was where I could find insights for my forms work. But recently, I’ve become more and more interested in surveys too and that’s what I’m mostly doing in workshops at the moment is survey workshops. Just come back from doing one at UXLx. The slides are on my SlideShare account. And I’m just preparing one for the User Experience Professionals Conference, which is in less than a month now in London.

Per Axbom
Right. So that’s — you were at UXLx which is the first year in the many years that we haven’t been there. And so you have to tell us how that experience was as well, going there and giving that talk and how people appreciated the talk that you gave and the workshop.

Caroline Jarrett
It’s a great conference, you know. If you’ve been you know it’s the most international conference that I’ve been to. I was lucky enough to go and do a talk on forms at the first one in 2010. So it was a real pleasure to be invited back to do something on surveys at the most recent one. I had about I guess 25 people in my workshop and probably representing at least a dozen countries which was great. We had a good productive time, I think so. We were doing a bit of a deep dive into questions. Looking first of all at the four step model for answering questions, and then we had a good look at asking about satisfaction and post-task satisfaction questionnaires.

James Royal-Lawson
I’ve got the presentation in front of me now. So I’m gonna cheat and read it. Read and understand, find the answer, judge the answer and place the answer.

Caroline Jarrett
Correct.

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah.

Caroline Jarrett
Do you want me to elaborate?

James Royal-Lawson
Absolutely! I think I would have come to the workshop if I’d been there because I think this is — I mean, it’s a fascinating subject because we’re — well, when we’re doing UX research, we’re constantly asking questions. We’re constantly placing questions or we’re asking for —like you said, the post-task or post-test questionnaires, system units, usability scales, or whatever it is. We’re constantly throwing questions at people, with scales here and there and net promoter scores. When you start digging into it, there’s so many little things, so many details. Just like everything else we do, it’s all about the detail and understanding what you’re doing.

Per Axbom
So it is actually easy for us to understand how you can get passionate about forms although when I have given talks about specific web forms and I’ve tried to pitch it to my client, the first thing that comes out of the mouth is that, that sounds really, really boring. And forms tend to have an effect on people. Well, just forms? That’s boring. If we get back to you about the four steps that you just read out James, is that read and understand, find an answer. The one that really caught my eye when I was looking at the presentation was judge the answer because I couldn’t — I wouldn’t have picked that out just thinking about it. So guide us through what those steps Caroline. What do they really mean?

Caroline Jarrett
Well, I think read and understand is pretty obvious. If you can’t read the question, if it’s illegible, you can’t understand it. If you can’t understand it, you can’t try and answer it. So finding an answer, some questions we do have answers just in our heads. So you just asked me a question, and I know this stuff pretty well, so I have the answer directly in my head. If you wanted to find an explanation you would possibly have to go and read something or look it up or hunt for it. One of the classic examples I give on finding an answer is when you pay for something using a credit card. Now, some people are very good with numbers and have memorised the long number on their credit card. I’m very bad with numbers and I have to read the number of the card. I have to have the physical card in front of me and I have to copy it digit by digit. So I have to find an answer. I have to look at something else to have an answer to that. Judging the answer is something that we generally are fairly happy to reveal answers to people but if you think about privacy, that a lot of us — I don’t want to shock you but many people actually have a completely full set of information that they use on the internet. I know. I know you can’t credit it, can you? Obviously majority of people always give exactly their precise, correct and accurate personal details on all occasions. But there is this behaviour which I’ve heard of where people may not always wish to reveal that to everybody. And that’s where they’re judging the answer. They’re deciding, “Is this an answer I actually want to tell someone?” On some websites I’ve seen, which have been thoughtfully designed against email address they may have a link to click to say how we’ll use your email address. Which for people who are sensitive about privacy might be the difference between revealing their actual email address or making one up. So that’s the judging part. Do people actually want to give you this answer and are they willing to give you the correct information? And then the placing the answer thing is exactly that problem I was just talking about where I had an answer for that website, which is to say I want to purchase as a private individual, but the only options they gave me was which type of Doctor are you? There was no place for me to tell them “I’m not a doctor, I’m just an individual person”. So it’s extremely common for there to be fewer choices in the mind of an organisation than there are in real life.

James Royal-Lawson
So wouldn’t another example maybe would be male, female or none of your business?

Caroline Jarrett
Yeah. And indeed, the Australian Government has — now has official Australian government policy is male, female or other. So some people are quite happy to tell you what their gender is but it’s neither male nor female.

Per Axbom
Of course and some people can be offended by just having the other box to check because there are well, I think Facebook has 23 different genders that you can select.

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah.

Caroline Jarrett
Right.

Per Axbom
You’re in the middle of a sex change. You had a sex change and you’re a — yeah, there’s a lot.

Caroline Jarrett
And why should you reveal all those details? But it just goes to show there’s very few questions where there are only exactly the sorts of answers that I call it the answers in the official mind and may not match up the answers in the main real world. And I find that four step framework is a very powerful way of looking at questions in general. It comes out of the world of survey methodology, which shows how the two fields can be usefully inform each other really. We did a lot of digging into that at the UXLx. For the one coming up in London, it’s a workshop that specifically aimed at experienced practitioners. So I’m really taking the opportunity to kind of max it out with the challenge and hit people with some fairly challenging or difficult concepts and seeing how they fly.

James Royal-Lawson
Have you got an example of one? You got to give me an example now of a difficult concept. That sounds great.

Caroline Jarrett
An example of a difficult concept, well, the really interesting concept is the concept of total survey error. So the survey methodologists do not think just about sampling error or statistical significance. So one of the things people say is, “Well, how many people do I have to survey in order to achieve statistical significance?” which is sort of worth asking. But no matter how many people you ask a question of, if it’s a stupid question, you won’t achieve real significance. You can achieve practical significance but with uninteresting answers. So total survey error is about looking at your overall costs. Both actual costs in terms of how many people you ask and how much data you’re going to have to process and cognitive costs, as in how much burden are you putting on the population that you’re surveying. Is that worthwhile? Should you be asking fewer questions of fewer people if the answer is nearly always yes?

Per Axbom
You’re trying to balance the pain of doing the stuff with the value of doing it.

Caroline Jarrett
Right. And looking at things like coverage error. So you could get 50,000 responses. Is that good or bad? Is 50,000 a good representation of the population you’re trying to survey or not? So, for example, 50,000 responses generated by people who are on Twitter would not be a good representation of, for example, the UK population because only a small minority of us are on Twitter.

James Royal-Lawson
I got a new car this year. Well, I got rung up a couple of times by the car company to ask how the whole experience was. I mean, I’m used to them doing that because I’ve had a car from them before. But this time, I got a new car survey and I didn’t fill it in. The reason I didn’t fill it in is because if memory serves me right, it was about 30 pages. And I’d flick through it and I’m just looking and thinking my God! I mean it’s all in Swedish as well. How long is it gonna take me? What am I going to do? There are like pictures of cars. He’s asking me to tell him about this bit, that bit, how it is to drive, how it is to buy what I thought about it before. It was just endless number of questions. There was nothing not in this survey. And I didn’t fill it in and I normally do quite like filling in surveys. There’s a bit of me that enjoys it. But now I’m reflecting on and thinking with what you’ve just said Caroline, that the people who do bother to fill that survey in, they can’t possibly be representative. Who in their right mind is going to fill in that survey with no reward or anything. It is just for pure joy. I will have to see if I’ve still got it and I might even send you it Caroline. Even though it’s in Swedish, I think you will like it.

Caroline Jarrett
Well, that’s an interesting example because that’s another type of error that comes into total survey error. That’s an error called non response error. So another sort of error you have to think about is even if you’ve sent your survey to a good random sample that does directly represent the population of interest. If you’ve got a situation where the people who don’t respond differ from the people who do respond in some way that matters to your survey then you’ve got non-response error.

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah.

Caroline Jarrett
Okay? And you can see how your sampling is not going to help that taking a better sample will not solve non response error. And you’re addressing the problem there where you’re saying, “Well, actually, I think only people who are particularly boring will answer this survey, and do they really want to infer the general population characteristics just on people who are completely obsessed and boring?” Maybe they do. Maybe that’s fine.

James Royal-Lawson
Exactly. Or every single person with two kids and everyone with full-time jobs who doesn’t have anywhere near enough time to fill in the 30-page survey are not going to respond. So then you end up cutting out an entire segment.

Per Axbom
But you just touch upon something else there also James. You said something, “and there wasn’t even a reward”. And that’s something I wanted to talk about a bit is. What if there was a reward? And given that there were also 30 pages and you had 500 questions with the Likert scale, with your strongly disagree to strongly agree. And in the end, having filled out a lot of those types of surveys, I realised that as I get further and further into it, I’m getting more and more tired, and I’m not really concentrating on the answers and I realised, well, I’m just checking — I’m sort of agreeing with the with the questions because I sort of know — half expect what the questions are going to be. So I’m guessing that the reward — if I want to reward enough, I’m going to complete the survey but I may not really be truthful in my answers or give them an enough thought for them to be representative of what I really feel.

Caroline Jarrett
Yeah, I mean, that’s definitely a phenomenon of people’s level of interest can decline. And really, it’s also a questionnaire of putting too much burden on the respondent. So, you can persuade people to answer for longer by giving them a better reward but you can’t stop them getting bored. You would bore them.

Per Axbom
That’s perfect. I love that.

Caroline Jarrett
A lot of surveys and market research have not moved on conceptually I think from — if you go back to the 1950s or before, collecting answers to a survey meant sending out someone with a survey as an interviewer and getting them to sit down with someone, and they would have a conversation and write down all the answers. Well, that’s a very expensive collection procedure. So once you’ve decided to do that, you really want to wring every last possible shred of opinion out of the person you’re interviewing. And in those days, I’m assuming surveys were possibly a nice novel interruption into the humdrum level of everyday life. Possibly, or maybe people were just very busy but because surveys were few and far between there was a level of novelty.

James Royal-Lawson
You felt special maybe. I mean, I remember…

Caroline Jarrett
Yeah, you felt special.

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah, when those days when someone rang up and said, “Do you mind if we come around and talk to you about radio listenership?” When they come around and talk to you about BBC Radio and things. It was quite interesting. It felt like you were important. You were valued. It was unusual.

Caroline Jarrett
Yeah. Right. And you were and you still ought to feel important and valued and unusual.

Per Axbom
Exactly.

Caroline Jarrett
But when it’s done in a very impersonal way and when it’s one of the many different things that compete for your attention in a very busy information stream that’s being hosed at us. And when it’s possible to reach far more people far more easily, then I think we should get over asking people quite so many questions. And these days, I think we can do what I call patchworking, which is my own name for it, which is instead of asking 500 people 50 pages of questions, you could ask 100 people five questions, and another hundred people a different five questions and another hundred people different five questions. Possibly with one or two questions that are common. Build up a sort of patchwork quilt picture of your data which sounds much more laborious, but — and it sounds as if it wouldn’t be representative. But it’s much more likely to be representative than asking two or three people who’ve got loads of time on their hands and may be completely unrepresentative of population, everything. It would be better to get little bits of very representative data and make a sort of mosaic or patchwork picture that, you know, is a good picture, then have very large amounts of very unrepresentative data. Does that make sense?

James Royal-Lawson
Yes, it does.

Per Axbom
Yes, it does. I’ve never heard of it before.

James Royal-Lawson
It’s an excellent idea. I was just thinking as well that, so often now we see the layer comes up on the website in the middle of you doing something else, which is your actual task on the website, and asks you, “Do you have a few minutes of your time to answer some questions about our website?” Straightaway there, you’re distracted. You’re irritated and you’ve got to click yes or no. But that in itself using the patchwork method that you’ve described now Caroline, that itself could be a question. So if you’re gonna get them to do one click, you might as well ask them the question straight off and get them to click there, on that one.

Caroline Jarrett
And also if you can try and build some confidence in the population. Now what we’re doing at the moment is, I think organisations are systematically training their customers to ignore them. So for example, hey, let’s name and shame. British Telecom, great big major telecom supplier in the UK.

Per: Yeah.

Caroline: I did a small study, a qualitative study of survey response a couple of summers ago and a friend of mine was very kind and kept records of every survey she filled in for a month. She was having a couple of problems with her telephone at the time and the first time she contacted customer support at BT, they sent her a “How was this for you?” survey. She filled it in.

The problem wasn’t resolved and the second time she contacted them, they sent her the same survey. She filled it in but she wasn’t really happy about it.

By the third time she contacted them and they sent her the same survey, she decided never to answer their surveys ever again.

Per: Of course.

Caroline: So in the course of a month, they trained her to be a completely dedicated non-respondent. I think many organisations are doing that to their customers, by asking them too often.

Per: We’ve only scratched the surface really because we haven’t talked about how sensitive a topic is. We’re asking about how do we formulate the questions, stuff like that. How do we make people understand what the question is and what type of response we’re really expecting? Even legibility. I know that you’ve talked about that in your workshop as well Caroline, the type face, the font, how legible it is. Is it black and white? Are you using colours that distract the user? There are so many aspects of online forums that it’s just mind-blowing.

James: Yeah, I was thinking about the question bias as well. Knowingly or unknowingly write biased questions. I got an example about that as well.

Caroline: So there you go. You see, I detect a little bit of forms passion coming through there. I can feel the infection spread out. Be careful because if it hits you bad, you might be stuck with it for the next 20 years.

James Royal-Lawson
Do you know, I think we probably will invite you back on again at some point in the future Caroline, because I can tell you we could fill up definitely more than one show.

Per: Oh, yeah.

James: With content, with talking with you.

Caroline: That will be terrific. 

Per Axbom
Thank you so much for being with us.

James Royal-Lawson
Thanks Caroline.

Caroline Jarrett
You’re welcome.

James Royal-Lawson
Thank you.

[Music]

James Royal-Lawson
This podcast has been a repeat show from our archives. Let us know which of your favourite episodes over the years you think should be repeated for more people to listen to.

Per Axbom
And if you’d like to contribute to funding UXPodcast, then visit uxpodcast.com/support

Remember to keep moving.

James Royal-Lawson
See you on the other side.

James Royal-Lawson
So Per, I’ve done a survey asking people what make of shampoo they use in the shower.

Per Axbom
Okay

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah. 99% of them answered, “What the hell are you doing in here? Get out!”

Per Axbom
[Laughs]

James Royal-Lawson
And now I bet you’re wondering about the 1%. Aren’t you?