Season Two, Episode Seven.

[Music]

Per Axbom
Hello, I’m Per Axbom.

James Royal-Lawson
And I’m James Royal-Lawson.

Per Axbom
And this is UX podcast. We’re in Stockholm, Sweden. And you are listening to us from all over the world, including Namibia and Hong Kong.

James Royal-Lawson
This episode is a link show. But it’s not an ordinary link show.

Per Axbom
It’s quite a very, very different link show. Because

James Royal-Lawson
Very, very different!

Per Axbom
Yeah.

James Royal-Lawson
Okay.

Per Axbom
Because you’ll be able to listen to the links. That’s essentially what you’re going to be doing here in the show.

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah. So in today’s linkshow, we’re featuring two articles. One of which is by James Royal-Lawson, called Final call. And the other article is by Per Axbom is called…

Per Axbom
Your unique typing rhythm can reveal your identity. And what’s so special about these articles is that they are also podcasts.

James Royal-Lawson
Yes, both Per and I, we are recording audio versions of our articles that we write on our websites. And this is your chance to listen to those podcasts as part of this podcast. And we’ll do our usual Linkshow thing by reflecting on these articles a bit as well.

Per Axbom
So James, let’s start off with with your article, Final call and give it a listen. And I have to say just off the bat, it for me it was extremely painful just listening to this

[Music]

James Royal-Lawson
[Reads the article Final call]

[Music]

Per Axbom
Okay, so that pain I expressed before we just played this, this little clip was based on my own experiences travelling these days, and everything is just so complicated. If you’re you’re trying to stay on top of things, because you’re sort of a tech geek and you have all the apps installed and you want to stay informed. But staying informed today means that you’re getting information from lots of different places that aren’t always synced. And that just creates a lot of frustration. Yeah.

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah, it’s, it’s that whole kind of high level thinking of the experience, which is what I was getting at in the in the article, that’s, you know, service design just breaks down when you look at the full journey, as an individual going through that flying experience. It’s a mess.

Per Axbom
It’s a mess, and it’s a mess in a very, very short timeframe as well.

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah. And you know, it’s stressful, it destroys trust it, you know, it makes you makes you sweaty as you’re running towards gates. I mean, it’s really not good. And you know, of course, I try and think, what can we actually do? It’s very well me describing and saying what know that service design is missing. But where do you put the service design. Where is the intervention that would make this work?

Per Axbom
Exactly, because you have to go up a few levels. I mean, somebody is working with the staff on how they’re announcing stuff. And somebody’s working on the tech that announced this stuff automatically. And someone else entirely is pulling information into your app, which is third party, I assume. And so it’s really hard to know well, who owns the information and who should be responsible for fixing all this?

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah. And on top of that, there’s a pilot in an aeroplane who knows full well what’s going on

Per Axbom
who knows everything. So really, we should just give him a microphone,

James Royal-Lawson
basically. And that’s done You know, the the end of that story there was we arrived on time, we’re slightly ahead of time. And, you know, the pilot knew that the pilot knew that when he was trundling in late to Manchester to pick me up, they already knew that turning around and go back and have a back wind and ever come in 10 minutes early, you know, the whole thing was, was just charades. it’s just nonsense. It didn’t need to happen in that sense in this example.

Per Axbom
Exactly. And what I was reflecting on as well was that it’s, we’re talking about a few minutes back and forth. We don’t need this information. I mean, I can wait for the bus and it’d be late for five minutes. That’s fine. I’m not I don’t need like five notifications telling me oh, it’s three minutes late. No, it’s It’s seven. No, we’re back to five. It’s like, it’s just useless. It’s useless interaction. It’s it didn’t even have to be there. Everything could just be quiet, and you would have been fine.

James Royal-Lawson
Exactly. Less would have been better. Yeah, in this situation. We’re going back again, to like how you actually solve this, it’s kind of, for me, that’s actually, the most frustrating thing is that, I don’t see how it’s possible to solve it.

Per Axbom
Yeah, when solving it means take away the computers, don’t make the computers talk to the to the travellers, make them computers, talk to the staff. And then the staff will be fully aware of what the computers are saying. And they can adjust that as things happen. And they can decide, well, I’m not going to announce that it’s seven minutes late, because that doesn’t matter.

James Royal-Lawson
But you can’t take it away. Because you’ve got all these airlines that are have got all their apps, all the information, there’s all this stuff there and they’re sending it. I mean, there’s so much there’s so many layers, you need to take away. That it’s it’s, it’s almost even that what you’re seeing, I’m kind of taking away computers and taking away the information is is as big a problem as actually fixing the integrations.

Per Axbom
So while the fix the fix has to be somewhere because the fix has to be that I as a human being, including the staff doesn’t have to deal with all the frustrations and the anger. That means so putting on soundproof headphones and just not not

James Royal-Lawson
Care Hmm. self preservation? Oh, yeah, that’s actually

Per Axbom
I mean when based on what you just said, that has to be the solution, because if you can’t fix it that way, or the other way, then I have to protect myself and my well being,

James Royal-Lawson
but then if they change gates on you, you’re not gonna know about it.

Per Axbom
Nope.

James Royal-Lawson
So you miss your flight. So again, it’s not,

Per Axbom
I have to carry a sign, I’m going to display it and somebody will have to come get me,

James Royal-Lawson
My name is Per Axbom. If you need me, I’m here. That kind of thing.

James Royal-Lawson
Some people commented to me that, you know, or service design can solve this, you know, it’s service design, using systems thinking and will be able to kind of work out where the interventions needed at what kind of like level and yeah, absolutely work out that is needed on a global airline level, or something like that. But I still think, you know, we’ve, we’re going to have that problem of execution, when you’re actually trying to do the intervention, are you going to be able to do it in a way which actually succeeds? And this is my frustration, with with so many of these things we have is that we talk about the theoretical aspect of service design or systems thinking of what what we can do, how we can design something how we can make do an intervention in the right place to make a difference. But how often do we see actually working?

Per Axbom
It feels like a leading question, James.

James Royal-Lawson
I’m still looking.

Per Axbom
No we’re just we’re making things more and more complex, because there are so many integrations through so many touch points. It’s, and somebody says, we’re going to we’re going to solve it this time around, but not solving the root problem of, we don’t need all this information, we need to go back to understanding what is the information that needs to go out, we don’t need to send out everything just because we can. We need to send out the information that helps people be prepared, feel better, and make good choices.

James Royal-Lawson
And as is at the moment, we’re still we’re still trying to fix things in slices.

Per Axbom
Yep.

James Royal-Lawson
You know, the airport tried to fix is its experience, you know, the airline tried to fix its experience. You know, we’ve we’ve, we’ve got slices that are all been dealt with. And, and in isolation, a designer might be happy or might be happy with what they’ve produced, but in combination with all the other slices. It’s, it’s not working.

Per Axbom
And like you were saying you you’re not even certain that the staff is aware that their information doesn’t go out into the whole terminal, and just stays at the gate.

James Royal-Lawson
I honestly don’t know. I mean, they seem to be aware about the automation side of things that they couldn’t stop the announcements, but, I’m not sure they, they knew how far they went in the airport. This yeah, there’s a lot to there’s a lot to know about what’s not happening? That makes sense?

Per Axbom
And the best thing would have been if nothing happened?

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah.

[Music]

James Royal-Lawson
Our second article today, or second podcast today is your article Per.

Per Axbom
It’s actually from 2020 is when I wrote about this about something called keystroke dynamics

[Music]

Per Axbom
[Per reads the article Your unique writing rhythm can reveal your identity]

[Music]

James Royal-Lawson
One thing I think of straight away is you talk much slower without me.

Per Axbom
Well, I’m not really talking. I’m reading.

James Royal-Lawson
Ah.

Per Axbom
So maybe that’s what’s going on.

James Royal-Lawson
Okay. Oh, no.

Per Axbom
Oh, how fast how fast did you play it?

James Royal-Lawson
Normal Speed? Okay, no, no, it’s not a criticism is a reflection? Yeah.

Per Axbom
Oh interesting

James Royal-Lawson
I was thinking as well. But what does this does this techniques or this research Can you can you apply it to touchscreens as well, a lot of talk though about how use keyboards but can…

Per Axbom
I’m pretty I’m pretty confident you can apply to touchscreens, I mean, that’s the same thing. Everybody’s using the same, there’s going between letters, there’s always this similar timeframe each time. And once you add up enough of those, you will have enough data to well understand that there’s a unique person behind it,

James Royal-Lawson
I guess as well that the touchscreens now they’re I mean, they’re, they’re pressure sensitive.

Per Axbom
Exactly.

James Royal-Lawson
So you can tell how much you pressing? And I guess, when you’ve got wiping actions, the right words, then I guess you you swipe maybe in a particular pattern. And

Per Axbom
some people use space. Some people just use small characters. I mean, there’s so many things, and some people use abbreviations on phones nowadays that are very unique to them. Some, maybe there’s even more unique language for each person today.

James Royal-Lawson
That’s actually an interesting aspect of this. I mean, you were talking though, more specifically about the inputting of characters and monitoring, logging that and how that reveals your identity. But what we’re seeing, as well as the use of a body of text, to identify and identify you as an individual.

Per Axbom
Yep.

James Royal-Lawson
I mean, I remember the example of JK Rowling, author of the Harry Potter books, she was outed as the author of a book called The Cuckoo’s Calling over 10 years ago now. And that was done by analysing various texts and, and realising that this book had a match to, to her style, right. But back then in 2013, they actually called this computer software. Rather then AI

Per Axbom
which is a rather propular term today for a computer software.

James Royal-Lawson
Yes. But yeah, so we have our own, I mean, not only the way we type is a fingerprint, then the the way in which we string words together,

Per Axbom
Exactly.

James Royal-Lawson
A fingerprint.

Per Axbom
Yep. And that’s pretty scary. And there’s so much data from our typing going on nowadays. And sometimes, I mean, I’m reading things today, along the lines of, we can instal software on people’s computers that can tell us if they are feeling unwell, or after they are having mental health issues based on how they are typing and how their typing changes over time. And it’s interesting to me that people are finding actually, well, trying at least with research trying to find, can this be helpful? At the same time, of course, as it’s extremely dangerous, in that people are often not aware that this is going on,

James Royal-Lawson
Oh so you are saying that the, the, your typing style. So not just your, the word you’re using button, the typing style, and and what you output can be used as a diagnosis tool. Yes. That’s really interesting.

Per Axbom
It is really interesting.

James Royal-Lawson
Because that then puts into that same thing, again, where we’ve got a tool for good,

Per Axbom
Yeah.

James Royal-Lawson
Which at the same time, I mean, I know that the US government, for example, has got a programme that they’re pursuing to analyse texts to identify individuals, so So you can’t be anonymous via text anymore, that if you’ve written something, they can then work out who you are.

Per Axbom
Exactly. Yeah. So yeah, so as soon as you start logging all this information, you are never anonymous anymore. And there’s, it just takes so little to understand exactly and pinpoint the exact identity of a person, which is just insane.

James Royal-Lawson
What we’re actually saying is that any of us with anything published online, can’t be anonymous.

Per Axbom
Pretty much. Yeah. And yeah, I mean, that’s my conclusion. Because I have to say, based on an interesting aspect, I’ve also been reading about typing is that a lot of software is now being developed also called this dual letter acronym. But I can I could record you typing on your keyboard right now. And it could work out what you’re typing, just by the sound of it.

James Royal-Lawson
Oh, right. Huh I’m want that touchscreen again, you will be able to hear me if I’ve got my touchscreen.

Per Axbom
Now that’s yeah, that’s a good point.

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah. Touchscreen becomes a security feature. But you said about the legality aspect. It’s illegal in a lot of countries.

Per Axbom
Yeah.

James Royal-Lawson
Is it also is that in all contexts? I mean, like, Come My, how many employers can have laptops with key loggers in and things? Is that Is that something which,

Per Axbom
I mean, it is surveillance. So I mean, if the person isn’t aware of it’s happening, then it’s can possibly be illegal at most, at least in most western democracies?

James Royal-Lawson
Well, if you’re in Europe, I imagine it’s possibly not I mean, I actually don’t have not researched this, but spontaneously, I’m gonna say, well, it’s probably okay in America, and it’s probably not in Europe.

Per Axbom
It also depends on how it’s how it’s like written, it could be that well, we are going to use it for this purpose. But we will never save the exact information on what you were typing. We’re just logging how much you were working, I guess.

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah. But that’s, yeah, a lot. Logging, what’s been typed in without you realising. That’s another example. I can I can think of when I’ve worked with with with chat, the chat in the chat operators that you do in customer service, that sometimes there when you’re writing things in the input box before you send it, the chat operator can actually see it. Because it’s getting transmitted character for character beforehand.

Per Axbom
You mentioned that to me, and that feels absolutely insane. I mean, how is that legal? Because that is also surveillance.

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah. And the way it was explained to me was that it was done to improve response metrics. So you actually can, you know, you can prepare your reply as an operator to send pretty straight away as you receive the question. So it looks like you’re doing a really quick Good job.

Per Axbom
But what essentially I can type, I can type, you idiot, but delete it, but I just want to type it because I’m frustrated with the operator, I type that delete it. And they’ve seen it.

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah they’ve seen it. So there. And that’s what I’ve seen in research that they they’re actually coloured, they’re actually affected by that, by seeing that response, there’s a bit of trauma there that they’ve seen it. And they have to then work on getting rid of that from their own response, you know, because they haven’t seen it, but they’ve seen it. And then you’ve got the deception side of things for the actual customer, they don’t understand that they’re being monitored. In that sense. They think that everything’s safe until they press enter,

Per Axbom
Of course. And that’s I think I mentioned that as well. And I mean, this is something that Facebook did, but what you typed into the Facebook status window was actually saved, even if you’ve never sent it.

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah. Oh, we see, we see with autosave, you see this a lot of tools and tools and email the rest of it, you know, everything’s autosaved now. So so, you know, you do have things saved, even when they draft in your context. I mean, you see this as not ready. But it’s, it’s, it’s there somewhere. So that means is open for, potentially for other uses, that you may or may not be aware of.

Per Axbom
Yeah. So I suppose what I’m trying to do when I write these things, is that I’m trying to help people become more aware, so that they can take better care of how they approach digital services. But it’s, I mean, it is essentially impossible these days. And I think people need to be aware of that as well. But that obviously also triggered things that you thought about, well, if you type it over there, people are gonna see it. So if you use a keyboard, the information will end up somewhere. Yeah, I’m going to use pen and paper, more of that it feels like when I say that, it’s like, oh, you’re you’re, you’re a tech. You hate tech, you don’t want you want to do don’t want us to innovate and evolve? Well, I do. I just don’t want all my data saved all the time. And imagine all the all the the servers that needed for this and all the data traffic that’s going on all the time as well. It’s just, it’s insane amounts of data, and storage and electricity being used. Just because I typed a word on a keyboard.

James Royal-Lawson
What do you what do you put it like that? Just because I typed it word on the keyboard? Yeah, it’s, it’s tip of the iceberg stuff.

Per Axbom
Exactly. Because when you’re I mean, when you visit a lot of newspapers online, and you realise how many trackers are there, actually logging what you were typing and how you’re interacting with the site, constant traffic to many, many different sites being saved all the time.

James Royal-Lawson
Well, I think though, if these – Well today’s linkshow has been to give you an insight and a bit of a look at the kind of stuff me and Per are writing about elsewhere, outside of the podcast, and please go ahead and subscribe to The talking tin, which is the name of my podcast with James Royal-Lawson and Carefully with Per Axbom.

Per Axbom
Available where ever you get your podcasts

James Royal-Lawson
Yes. Which is probably where you listen to this one. We will be back in January for another batch of season two episodes. Until then, you can listen to our other podcasts.

Per Axbom
Remember to keep moving

James Royal-Lawson
See you on the other side

Per Axbom
So James, did you hear about the hungry clock?

James Royal-Lawson
Nope, I didn’t. I didn’t hear about the hungry clock.

Per Axbom
Yeah, I went back for seconds.