A transcript of Episode 237 of UX Podcast. James Royal-Lawson, Per Axbom, and Mar Murube talk about Mar’s experience of interviewing vulnerable people during the Covid-19 pandemic and what we can do to help yourself and those being interviewed.
This transcript has been machine generated and checked by Janine Beck.
Transcript
Per Axbom
With so many of us having to adapt to different ways of living and working during the COVID-19 pandemic, James and I are having regular UX Podcast speaker breaks. A live 30 minute chat. Visit www.uxpodcast.com/fika to find out when.
Computer voice
UX Podcast, Episode 237.
[Music]
James Royal-Lawson
Hello, everybody. Welcome to UX Podcast coming to you from Stockholm, Sweden. We are your hosts James Royal-Lawson.
Per Axbom
And Per Axbom.
James Royal-Lawson
With listeners in 194 countries from Hong Kong to Afghanistan.
Per Axbom
Mar Murube is a design and user research consultant based in London. Her recent projects have included amongst others, working for Camden Council and their Good Work Camden initiative.
James Royal-Lawson
And that work with Camden Council has involved a number of rounds of user interviews, some of which had to be conducted after the outbreak of COVID-19.
Per Axbom
Mar joins us to share her experiences from those interviews and talk about how we can prepare ourselves when conducting research.
James Royal-Lawson
So Mar, can you just describe for us – tell us a little bit about the interview you carried out a few weeks ago and what happened?
Mar Murube
So it wasn’t just one interview. So I’ve been doing this piece of work with Camden Council and speaking to – to residents that are newly vulnerable. So people that maybe before they weren’t identified as vulnerable, but now they’re in a more vulnerable situation. And that can really just be anyone you know, it can be you or me or just someone who’s going through a rough patch and with everything that’s going on, you know, your life just gets worse. So I was doing this piece of research for – for this program and just trying to understand, you know, I mean, we are trying to launch something to help people basically have access to – to better work in the Council.
James Royal-Lawson
This was a system – this is a program to try and give more digital support to people who are unemployed?
Mar Murube
Well, yes, that, and also like, give them training. And it’s also working with businesses in the borough. It’s working with employers and just trying to, you know, create better work, so not just having, like a gig economy type of work, but also having work that’s going to be good for the person in the long term and also for the business and trying to create that inclusive richness, you know, inclusive economy and in trying to grow things. So it’s a really, really lovely program. It’s something really, you know, positive but obviously that means that we needed to have a lot of input, and the way I structured their research was having a bit of, in the beginning, you know, having a bit more of like open-ended questions and a bit more explorative. A bit more like you were doing a discovery, and then testing some of the assumptions and ideas that we had. So a very simple format. And, yeah, and I mean, I’ve been speaking with lots of people and I think the situation, I mean, why this is special is because it’s – on the one hand, it’s remote, so that’s always harder, as I had done remote interviews before and remote user testing, remote consulting before, but you know, it’s harder I think, you know, if you aren’t used to and also you have the whole thing of the pandemic, you know, the health crisis that’s going on with COVID-19. So those two things combined.
James Royal-Lawson
Did you start this research in person and then get kind of forced to move over to doing it remotely?
Mar Murube
Yes. We started in person. We started interviewing people face to face and actually having some physical artefacts. And then we had to, I think after one or two weeks, the next round of research, we had to do it remotely. So we had to very quickly set up, you know, we started using Google Meets and started using things like Mural, and you know, just very quickly trying to adapt what we had because, we still wanted to get those insights, you know, there was still value in doing it, but we just couldn’t be face-to-face. You know, the situation in England we have in the lockdown, and people have been advised not to travel if possible, not to go to work and, you know, it’s both sides. It’s for us, you know, but it’s also a risk for these people. So, so we moved on to the digital world.
James Royal-Lawson
And your target audience for these interviews like you say, there were vulnerable people or people who may be at risk of losing their jobs, prior to COVID-19 I guess.
Mar Murube
Yeah, but I mean, this whole thing just made it worse. You know, for example, we were talking with some people who maybe they were self employed and you know, they were doing some deep work here and there, and very varied, and they were getting by and you know, with the whole COVID-19 it just means like, it’s completely dry. They’re not getting any work at all. They’re going through a very, very difficult time because also, they’re not like officially employed. I mean, it just depends, like, we had a lot of different situations.
We had people who had been looking for a job, and obviously they had to stop when, all of this started. So, really, really different. And then also, I don’t know, I mean, I think the interview that we’re talking about where I think, you know, there was a situation, the person on the other end just started, he just started crying and you know, it was quite, quite impactful. And I think that was just because they started talking, you know, describing everything that they were going through and a lot of times I think we don’t really reflect on what’s going on. So we tend to just, you know, do the things, and you don’t really hear your own narrative about the events, and I think when you’re in an interview, you know, you’re having to explain to someone, about your life, about what you do, and where you live, you know, your situation. And, you know, it just becomes too much. So it’s obviously – this person then she became overwhelmed, and, you know, it just – we had a moment there and I’d really – I felt for me was a bit confusing, because obviously, I was trying not to be leading, I was trying not to be encouraging, you know, in a way, or trying to affect, you know, what was going to happen. I was trying to – it’s really hard to know, because you have your discussion guide and you want to speak, you know – you want to kind of return to the path that you have, but then on the other hand you’re having to say, “well, there’s a person here, you know, and they’re going through this” and you know, it’s “screw everything I need to be here for this person”. So I turned the – I was recording it and I turned everything off you know, and we just talked and, I mean I try not to give any advice because I’m not qualified to do that but I think just being there and being able to listen to what they were going through I think that was quite useful. And then after that I – the first thing I did was, I spoke with people who were in my team and I said well, you know, like this has just happened and you know, just trying to release because I think you – you’re getting then, all that load and you know, I was just trying to share. And then I also wrote something about it and people were super amazing you know, responsive. Everyone sent me links, you know, articles, things that you can do and then I put together just like a like a really short guide, you know, of what to do in these types of situations. And this is just like for internal for our team, you know, it’s like what to do now that we are covering research in these times, you know, how can we prepare ourselves because, you know, 90% of doing something successfully is preparing for it. So what can you do beforehand? What can you do during the interview and then what can you do once you leave them you know and –
James Royal-Lawson
Going back to the actual interview, what did you feel during that moment? What did you feel that when – that you you handled well and what went less well during that moment when you were there with that person?
Mar Murube
I think what went less well or what I would have liked to do different was maybe just trying to stick, you know, to the discussion guide and try to – but I mean I didn’t for a long time, but you know, just trying to be “professional me” you know, more human me. But I think you know, I just switch naturally so I feel a lot of empathy when I’m speaking with people and, you know, given everything, I think I handled it quite well.
James Royal-Lawson
Do you think that we should remain detached during these kind of research situations?
Mar Murube
I think we need to be there for the persons, I think we need to, you know, hold space and what I don’t think we should do, and it’s the part that’s really hard for me, is you know, it’s actually saying, well, you know – I actually – getting too involved, you know, and telling them about your own personal problems, which is something like, maybe with a friend I would do, you know, like, if I was talking with a friend, I would say, “oh, yes, you know, something similar happened to me”, or “I know someone” or, you know, just maybe even give them more advice or it’s less of – when you’re interviewing someone, and I’m sure you know, this from the podcast, it’s like you have to let the other person talk. And I think you know, that can be very – that can be very heavy, you know, for some people.
I think it’s more natural when it’s a conversation and you know, someone says something and then the other person says something else. And, and I think, you know, obviously, when you’re doing user research, that’s not something that you would do. We even use the silence in a strategic way, you know, to get people to talk, to get people to tell us more about them and about the situation. So I think then it’s really hard to know, like – because also these people, you know, they’re not really your friends, you know, you don’t know anything about them, they don’t know anything about you, and it’s a professional relationship.
So I think it’s having those boundaries, you know, and saying, “how can I be of help”, you know, “how can I give something to this person?”. If they need space? You know, they need to talk with someone, if they need to be listened to, you know, how can I be there without judging, you know, and just, you know, just give him something because I really want to help them. But then at the same time, it’s like, how do I not, you know, become involved, like too, too involved? Because, obviously, you know, if I didn’t have any of this, I would say, yeah, you know, it’s let’s talk on the phone or something, but it’s hard to see and also like, you can’t just do that.
Per Axbom
Have you had anything similar happen previously? Like in, in face-to-face interviews or research? Have you had similar things happen? Or was this the first time?
Mar Murube
So yeah, I’ve had like – so I worked before doing research, with sensitive, you know, around sensitive topics, and like, mental health and addictions and, there have been some situations which were maybe a bit more tense or you could feel what the other person was feeling. And that’s why I also think that the fact that we’re doing this remotely, you know, you can’t really see what the other person is doing. And it’s just like another barrier that you have there. So, before, yes, I have had some things like that, but it was never so, extreme. You know, it was always, I think, so it was, under different – I think you can also measure how the other person is doing better.
Per Axbom
Because to me, it sounds like you handled it extremely well. It sounds, but like, you were perhaps unprepared for it, but you had – I mean, you’re an experienced researcher, obviously, so you, you’re always aware that something could happen, that something could go wrong, and you sort of have to be flexible around what’s going on. And there’s this boundary, of course, always when you’re doing an interview,
Mar Murube
Yeah, but like I said, you know, it’s, I think the heartbeat – I’m sure you guys can understand, it’s, like you always want to do more. So you always want to, you know, you always want to say, “well, what could I have done that I didn’t do”. I think that’s one of the things that I’ve changed after this call. After everyone just gave me all this advice is I now have, like more resources, you know, so for example, if I’m interviewing people that are – I know because of where they are coming from, you know, that they’re having some problems around domestic violence, you know, some kind of issues around that, then I have, like resources to put them in touch and say, “well, you know, you should contact all these people and they’re going to help you”. And then at least you’re giving them like a next step, a fraction, or if you know, they’re going through any other problem, you know, and the good thing is that working for local government, they have a lot of services that people can use, you know, and then it’s – at least to – you’re helping them a bit more. Otherwise, yeah, I mean, it’s that thing about wanting to help people, and saying “there’s only so much I can do”.
I mean, that’s the whole thing about empathy.
James Royal-Lawson
Yeah, I think that is excellent advice that when you do go into research interviews that you always have with you, the collection of resources to share. Like I guess this is – we’ve seen nowadays, if an article – a news article is talking about maybe someone well known who’s taken their own life. Then there’s a code of conduct now amongst media organisations where at the end of the article, they will always give links and phone numbers to suicide charities and hotlines. Because it’s been shown that there’s always a spike, there’s generally a spike in copycat situations for people who are vulnerable, straight after one of these well publicised media profiles, if one of these tragically happens.
Now, I’ve realised that we should put something at the end of this show, because we’re talking about this.
Mar Murube
Yeah, absolutely. I just think it will vary a lot. So I think, you know, in order to be useful, the advice needs to also be specific. So you have to know what, you know, what the person is going through or otherwise, you know, it will be too broad. Also, I mean, I think, you know, luckily the type of things that I’m hearing from research with residents at the moment you know, they’re not as as extreme. I mean, you never know but for the moment you know, they’re more things like, they’re not having the, you know, they can’t access the food they need or maybe they’ve been cut out from their families. Or they don’t have, you know, they don’t have any help around childcare. They – it’s also like, the climate of insecurity, I think, you know, that’s also really, really heavy, and that’s for everyone really. You know, I think what we’re going through, it’s, really – I don’t want to say the word ‘unprecedented’, you know, because everyone keeps saying “unprecedented times”, and, it’s just fucking hard [laughs]. You know, it’s just really, really hard.
James Royal-Lawson
But I think though we’ve got to look, – or consider the fact that probably how we talk to users in these interview situations, might well change now for quite a sustained period of time. So some of the skills that maybe we haven’t had previously or maybe haven’t been as warmed up with, are going to get thrown to the forefront. Now. This unknown amount of time going forward.
Mar Murube
We don’t know how many – how long any of this is going to last. But, you know, obviously, I think, we need to consider, you know, like that when we’re actually – when we’re asking people things, and we’re letting them talk, you know, it’s almost like, you’re taking on a therapist role. You know, but I’m not a therapist, I’m just a user researcher, you know, trying to get some insights for my team so we can help better. So, I mean, maybe we should do more training around that. Maybe we should, you know, try to see how we can be of more help. Because also, I mean, I’ve worked with many, many user researchers and, why there are some traits which are common, like, you know, they’re all like highly empathic people, and they like to listen, but, you know, like, we’re all very different as well. So maybe, I mean, if I was a different person, I would have handled this different you know, I mean, some people, I don’t want to say, especially men, but you know, if they see people crying, they just completely, you know, like they can, you know, they can block, or you know, it’s like, we’re all different, so I think we need to have some kind of guidelines on how to react in situations like this and how to be of help.
Per Axbom
But it’s so hugely important what you’ve been saying several times now actually, that I’ve heard. It’s not your job to give advice. And that is so important for so many researchers out there to realize like, I think there is a very real danger, that with all this empathy, that you will want to give advice. And in that situation, you can put yourself in all sorts of problematic situations if you start giving advice. So I agree with all the training that has to happen here and the, talking about it, long, long before it happens.
James Royal-Lawson
Yeah, I think an important point here Per, is, like Mar said about that, you know, we’re not trained as therapists or counsellors, whereas you you’re ending up in a situation where you do need to be a trained counsellor. Now, counselling that training is special and very detailed, and just conducting the interview like you do at first and then switching to a counsellor role, you can’t do that. You shouldn’t do it rather.
Mar Murube
No you should’t.
James Royal-Lawson
So I guess you’re going to need – because you risk making, potentially, the problem worse. So I guess what we’re looking for here, and what we’re talking about is a special kind of training for researchers, that allows you to deal with these situations in a neutral way, – in a way that’s going to not make things worse, but at the same time, not – maybe – make things better, because you’re not trained to do that job. It is a difficult one this.
Mar Murube
It is. And also, I think, you know, maybe, I mean, looking at their recent past or looking maybe at their past 10 years, you know, like you were doing research. For example, if I was working for some kind of – Uber or, you know, some kind of tech company, I wouldn’t necessarily be dealing with vulnerable people. But now because of this situation, it doesn’t really matter which field or which type of product you’re doing research for, like everyone is more susceptible of, going through challenging times. So I think we need to be prepared.
And I absolutely think, you know, I agree with you like, this should be part of the basic training that we get as researchers or, you know, I mean, there is lots of stuff on the web, but I just think like, you know, maybe, we just need to make that, you know, a bit more, take responsibility and say – if this happened to me, I mean, if someone listening to this podcast today, you know, they’re doing user research and if something like this happened to them, how would they react? So maybe just take five minutes to think about that and the things that you would do? What would you want to do and what would you not want to do?
James Royal-Lawson
That’s really good. I think one of the articles you link to from your own article about this was, I forget the title, “putting your own mask on first before helping others”. The thing that you always read when we used to fly in airplanes! And, and that though made me think, that’s an excellent point because, what we need to think about here is making sure you, as the as the interviewer, are, in a good place to deal with this as well. It’s not, just about the the person at the other end who’s clearly a bit traumatised and needs some, maybe more professional counselling. You need to have help dealing with this emotionally and putting yourself in a good place. So that you can recover from that interview. And also so you can be healthy going into the next one.
Mar Murube
Absolutely. So that’s one of the things, you know, when I when I said at the beginning, like I have a few steps, you know, which, I’ll be sharing these after but, it’s basically: First of all, when you schedule the interviews, you know, you need to allow more time between interviews, so maybe, you know, if in a normal day you would speak with three or four users, you know, so just make it less and allow more time so you can go back to yourself, you know, after you have each of these sessions, and then also, so that’s before. And then also after I think you need to do something, whatever brings you back to your own space, you know, so whether that is going for a walk, you know, talking to a friend, doing meditation, going for a run, but you need to, because otherwise, you know, I mean, I tend to speak with I don’t know, maybe between five and 15 you know, users when I’m doing qualitative studies and if you speak to that many people and then you don’t really let that out, you know, you’re just like, keeping stuff to yourself and hearing all these stories, you know, and, you need to also look after yourself.
Per Axbom
Being aware of safeguarding policies, recognizing effects of burnout and trauma, there’s this excellent staircase with tips that you have in your article on Medium. There is so much in there with regards to understanding yourself, but also having this – recognizing when to step in, when to interrupt and break the interview, stop recording, “how do I end the interview if it’s too emotionally taxing for myself?”, there’s so many things.
Mar Murube
Sorry, I keep interrupting but that’s also something super important. You know, when you’re doing research, I mean, usually you would always do this, you know, you tell people at the beginning, you know, like, you’re in control of this, we can stop at any point, and if anything makes you feel uncomfortable, I can go back, deleted, like, you want to make them feel like, they can decide. And I think we need to, as we go through the interview, you know, we need to keep reminding them of that. It’s almost like, you know, saying – you, I mean, you’re doing us a huge favor, you know, just by taking part in this session, and, you know, we can stop this anytime, and just make them know that they can do that. I think it’s important to keep going back to that and keep, I mean, you know, it’s not giving them permission, but it’s just saying, you know, you can do that, and you don’t need to answer everything that I ask you and, you know, we can move on. We can skip questions and just keep going. And I’m just thinking, like, a lot of times, you know, it’s just like something as simple as you know, tell me a bit about yourself, which is like the first question I always ask is like, right, “so tell me a bit about yourself, you know who you are, what you do.” And just something like that, you know, it can, it can provoke so many different questions on different people. It’s amazing.
James Royal-Lawson
One thing that strikes me as well about thinking about just this particular case, where you’re researching for people who may be going to be working – using an employment related service, that, the fact that they are – they have so much kind of – they get upset or they’ve got their, anxiety levels are up or all these kind of things, are actually really valuable inputs to judging the importance and knowing what you need to do. So there is yet another aspect of this, is that you’ve, you’ve got the big red button, you need to press when clearly the person’s too emotional to force an interview to go on. At the same time, it’s important research to know just how traumatised maybe or frustrated they are about some of these aspects to make sure you do improve them and have the right data to improve them.
Mar Murube
It is but I mean, I still, I wouldn’t want to push that or, you know, lead the conversation in any way. You know, I think, it’s a valuable insight, you know, but I definitely wouldn’t want to be asking things, you know, that are going to be making people uncomfortable. Because I think, you know, it’s more around, just giving them the space they need to express whatever they’re going through at that point. And another thing that’s also really, really useful when we’re interviewing people in these situations, is, you know, just to take the attention away. Sometimes it’s to go to artefacts, you know, or if you have like, any kind of, I mean, if this was like a real face-to-face thing, I would use something like prototype cards, you know, some kind of card sorting or something that directs the attention away from the subject. I think, you know, we can still do that if we’re doing remotely, you know, you can say “look at the screen” or, you know, just trying to make it a bit easier for them, you know, give them some some space to breathe as well, you know, to go back to themselves.
James Royal-Lawson
Now that’s actually made me think of the use of glove puppets, I’ll give you the links, to get children to talk. Kids will talk more to a glove puppet than they would to a to an adult or human.
Mar Murube
I mean, I don’t know. How do we do that? I don’t know. But I think that’s what would be great.
James Royal-Lawson
I’m not suggesting that you do that in your next round! [Laughing]. I think maybe it won’t work in your context. [Laughing]
Mar Murube
It’s the point about the artefact, I think it’s really important that you have something else to talk about. I mean, that works in all contexts within UX, I think, which is which is really good. So, for me, I recognize now when you’re talking about this that it seems like it doesn’t always have to end either with – but always just breaking the interview. It could also be questions, “do you want to take five minutes to breathe?”, “do you want to reschedule?”. So there are so many options available.
Yeah, that’s, what we did with that session. You know, obviously, we couldn’t continue that day, but then we, rearranged it for another. And that’s because the person wanted, you know, they were really happy with what, you know, the project, what they were seeing, and they wanted to help us. So I think that’s also something that you can do, you can offer them that possibility and say, “do you want to do this again?”, or “do you just want to stop?”. And, again, it’s putting them in control.
James Royal-Lawson
And that also gives the opportunity to, if they do want to follow up and reschedule then you can gather together some resources that you can make sure you give them in conjunction with the the follow-up chat?
Mar Murube
Yeah. No, it is. It’s something to think about. I mean, like, I think James, like you said before, this is going to change the way we work I think going forward and, you know, we need to be more prepared.
James Royal-Lawson
Excellent. Thank you very much for sharing your stories and experiences with us today.
Mar Murube
Thank you so much for listening. And I hope it’s useful for the people that are listening to the podcast. I love the podcast, so yeah, I can’t wait to see the next episode.
[Music]
Per Axbom
So what was going through my head throughout the interview was that we’re thinking about how to prepare for the unexpected. And in a sense, of course, then that means it’s impossible, because the unexpected is always unexpected. So we have to prepare for what we will be unprepared for. How do we work that into research education, and how do we work that into how we talk to others about conducting interviews and teach it to others? It’s really difficult. I mean, you are going to find yourself in these situations and where you have to be extremely respectful of other people and realize that you don’t have all the answers for them.
James Royal-Lawson
I think what’s important, there is exactly what you said. You can’t prepare for an infinite number of unknown situations. But the common thing in all these situations is going to be, you’re there. You’re, doing the interview, which going back to the bit we talked about with putting your own mask on first. The key thing is going to be that you need to know how to look after yourself. Because you are the one that’s always going to be in that interview, because you’re conducting them. So if you learn more about what process you need to have to reset after an interview, calm yourself down, shake things off, not be too emotionally lost in these interviews for too long.
Per Axbom
And don’t book too many of them back-to-back. You need that recovery time. You have to expect to need recovery time.
James Royal-Lawson
And sometimes though I think, it’s mentioned that, one thing you could do is if you are going into a particular set or series of interviews, you know what the rough topic is about, so you can collect together the latest support lines or help things or, you can make sure you know, what is likely to be something that comes up. Even if like you said, Per, that you can’t know for sure that’s exactly what will come up
Per Axbom
And it can come up with any topic because you never know what state of mind people are in. I think the piece of advice that resonated most with me, and that I haven’t actually applied enough is what I realized is that before even starting the interview, to advise the person that they can always choose to stop the interview at any time for whatever reason. It’s not up to me, it’s up to them. They’re there to help me and I’m okay with them stopping if they don’t feel comfortable for whatever reason.
James Royal-Lawson
Yeah that’s really good advice. Yeah, I actually chatted to my sister, who’s a professional counsellor. And I said a little bit about what do we as accidental counsellors need to do to minimise the damage effectively, because we know this. When it when it boils down to it, you aren’t their therapist, you aren’t going to be this person’s counsellor that you’re interviewing. You’re talking to them for a fixed amount of time. One-off thing. You’re doing research. So it’s kind of is damage limitation, and you’ve got to remember that you’re not going to fix them. And you need to give them that respect and that opportunity, exactly like you said, make sure you open the door for them to stop the interview. Cancel it or you know, not go in to subjects or places that they’re not prepared to talk about yet. I think one thing my sister said was about acknowledging when they do get into difficulty, or they are going through some emotional expression of what they’ve been through themselves, acknowledge that it is difficult, and you understand that it is difficult for them to talk about it.
Per Axbom
Yeah. Affirm their emotions and feelings because they’re always valid.
James Royal-Lawson
And respect their boundaries, because it’s, it’s their stories, their life.
Per Axbom
And I mean, I can certainly see the dangers here when when you have someone who maybe has only booked four or five interviews and they’re relying, – I have this data, I need to get this data, or if this interview fails, ie I don’t get the data I want from it, then I won’t have enough to go on with my project, so I can see the dangers in thinking that your needs go before their needs. I think that’s what you need to actually find that balance in that, it’s always the needs of the person you’re interviewing. They are the ones who are actually doing something and going out of their way to help you. So you can never demand more of them than should be expected.
James Royal-Lawson
During the interview. You’re right. I mean, you’ve got to respect them foremost, in the interview. But going back to what we said, after the interview, it’s about you.
Per Axbom
Yes, very good point. Yes.
James Royal-Lawson
Making sure you take care of your own health and your own state of mind. Because like I said, you’re not going to be able to fix them. You’re not their therapist.
Mar Murube
Right. I guess that would be a recommendation for if you work in a team, that you have debriefing sessions. If not, after each interview, at least end of day or something like that, when you talk about what you’ve been through. Which will also help others be better prepared in that they have also understood what could happen.
James Royal-Lawson
Yeah, that’s excellent advice. And, and I know counsellors and psychologists, therapists – part of the, like professional code of conduct, for all those people is that they have counselling therapy sessions themselves as part of their debriefing. Part of their getting rid of all this that they’ve had to soak up during their work.
Per Axbom
Yeah. So we did talk a while back to someone who has been through a lot of interviews and research situations, who even wrote a book about it. And that is Steve Portugal, of course. And we interviewed him back in. When was it?
James Royal-Lawson
Episode 149, which is when he released War Stories, which is a collection of stories that Steve has gathered from people who’ve done research over the years and had stories to tell, both good and bad. And then what we talked about in that podcast interview is just the benefits of sharing these experiences of both good research experiences and traumatic or bad research experiences.
Mar Murube
Yeah. So I mean, for me, that’s something that also helps, that I mean, you can empathize with those situations, which means you become even more aware of the inevitability of something happening that you didn’t expect.
James Royal-Lawson
And ultimately, better prepared.
Per Axbom
Yeah. Remember to keep moving.
James Royal-Lawson
See you on the other side.
[Music]
James Royal-Lawson
So Per, what kind of jokes are allowed during quarantine?
Per Axbom
I don’t know James, what kind of jokes are allowed during quarantine?
James Royal-Lawson
In jokes.
This is a transcript of a conversation between James Royal-Lawson, Per Axbom, and Mar Murube recorded in May 2020 and published as Episode 237 of UX Podcast.