Computer Voice
UX podcast episode 301.

[Music]

Per Axbom
Hello, everybody, welcome to UX Podcast coming to you from Stockholm, Sweden. We are your hosts paddocks boom

James Royal-Lawson
and James Royal-Lawson

Per Axbom
balancing Business Technology, people and society, with listeners all over the world from Iraq to Syria.

James Royal-Lawson
We are very excited today to be talking with Kim Flouds and Joyce Rafla. Joyce is an early childhood development researcher committed to improving learning experiences for children in various low and middle income countries. And Kim is Vice President content Research and Evaluation at Sesame Workshop. She oversees research and evaluation on Sesame Workshop co productions and community engagement interventions across the globe.

Per Axbom
And together Kim and Joyce have created something that is so immensely important for all research: finding ways for research participants to experience trust and safety in research situations. And they’ve of course done this to our delight with the help of Muppets.

James Royal-Lawson
Muppets and puppets. It’s always gonna be a lot of fun for for those that have been brought up watching.

Per Axbom
I wish I had the budget for something like this.

Per Axbom
Yeah, to bring in some actual Muppets to help with your research. But this week i Well, we both got light of this bit of research just before the summer of 2022. It, it flashed by me, shared by Steve Portugal. And as soon as you see the Muppets on the front of the, of the research, you kind of just have to read it.

Per Axbom
Exactly. It’s inevitable.

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah, so hope that works for the podcast cover art as well with the Muppets on it. This episode with Kim and Joyce was recorded live as part of our collaboration with Ambition Empower. It is a continuous learning programme that rethinks how you learn new topics within the field of design. Instead of attending a conference, you attend Ambition Empower, and take part in one or several tracks towards every week by industry design leaders.

Per Axbom
And for more details, visit uxpodcast.com/empower.

James Royal-Lawson
I think that any of us who’ve been involved in research or UX research, have probably hopefully, come into contact with consent forms. And if I think we’re honest with ourselves, we’ve probably all been in situations where we aren’t completely sure that the participants has understood just what they’re agreeing to. So I wondered if you could just start us off by explaining a little about what we mean by informed consent. And why it’s so important.

Joyce Rafla
Informed consent, for me is really about making sure that we don’t just get the signature at the end of the form when we used to do like in person data collection, but that I make sure that the respondents are fully aware of the costs and benefits of being involved in this. Especially vulnerable populations where, you know, time is of the essence, because their time that they give me like for giving the information about themselves or their households, that is time that they could use to actually secure food for their family. So I have to like be very sure that they completely understand. And this understanding can take different forms, not just the where we understand that like most high income countries where it’s like mainly about reading the form and understanding that the mode of communication can differ. So I think that’s like from like, working with families is one of the things that I think informed consent is involved with. But Kim, I think you also have another perspective.

Kim Foulds
Yeah, I agree with with what everything that Joyce has said and I would add to it. Because from Sesame’s work, from Sesame Workshop side, we do so much research directly with young children, preschoolers, so three, four in some contexts up to eight years old. And so when we talk about informed consent, of course, we want informed consent from parents and teachers, whoever we’re doing research with, but we also want young children to be able to give us informed consent. And in a lot of places around the world. That’s not a common thing that children are allowed to agree or not agree to participate in something that an adult is asking of them.

And so when we go into a research session with a child and their their parent is always there and has to provide consent on their behalf. But we also want to make sure that the child is aware of what’s going on, and that they are free to consent or not consent into the research process, that there’s no risk there, they don’t get in trouble. If they don’t feel comfortable, they’re not going to get in trouble of midway through, they’ve changed their mind. They don’t feel good. For whatever reason, they want to step away. So informed consent really is making sure that everyone regardless of the age of the person participating in the research study, is fully aware of their rights to lean in as much as they want or fully disengage without any risk or sort of consequence to their behaviour.

Kim Foulds
Because you’ve got I mean, that’s the fascinating thing to think about the fact that we have the legal aspect of concern in many countries where the adult is the only one that needs to give it because the child isn’t an adult. So they can’t give any consent, because they’re not a legal entity, I guess is what you’d say there. But what you’re talking about there is the is the human aspect of, of this consent, that it’s not just taking a legal box, you’re, you’re making sure the humans involved are giving their consent too.

Kim Foulds
We consider ourselves as child-centred researchers. Research at Sesame Workshop is embedded through the entire lifecycle of anything we do, whether it’s a season of a television show, or its community engagement intervention, we do needs assessments with with families at the beginning, we do ongoing formative research where we’re testing prototype content with children and parents. And then we work with Joyce and teams like New York University’s Global ties for children to assess efficacy. And so through that, we really do say that our work in developing content is child-centred. And you can’t really say that your child-centred if you’re not looking at the child as a whole human in the process, and ensuring that they also are aware of their rights as a research participant.

Per Axbom
And how do you in the end, because I think that’s what I struggle a lot with, even with like, I mean, not vulnerable populations is that, how do I actually confirm that it is informed consent that they have understood the risks.

Kim Foulds
This is where, so this is how we came about the video. Joyce and a colleague of ours, Tarik, who once worked with our partner in the Middle East International Rescue Committee. We’re working on an evaluation of a home visiting programme for parents of children, zero to two, and Joyce and Tarik said, you know, we don’t really know that parents understand what they’re consenting to. Joyce, do you want to share more about that?

Joyce Rafla
Yeah, we used to go to the families and with the written form, and in Arabic, Arabic is a diglossic language. So it’s a little bit like German, where there’s High German, and then the spoken German, and like Greek and others. So Arabic has like the the formal form of Arabic, which is Modern Standard Arabic, and then there are dialects. So usually consent form in in that study that came was referring to was written in the MSA version, the Modern Standard Arabic version. And this is a very formal way of speaking to someone. So we were worried that people are not really getting what they’re consenting to. So that was one layer. The other layer is that generally, Arab cultures tend to be more on the hospitable side of the spectrum, where and we were going to people’s homes at the time, it was pr-COVID. And so it was, we expected that it was gonna be kind of difficult to say no or not consent to the research when we’re in the homes of the people. And so we were like, Okay, let’s take a stand at the door and like, tell them what this is about leave and come back, but that in practicality did not work.

James Royal-Lawson
You’re going to be invited in any way aren’t you? You’re gonna be dragged into the home because of the culture..

Joyce Rafla
Yeah exactly, you’re gonna be invited in and they’re gonna give you tea. And they’re gonna like, see how you’re doing first and then see why you are there so it practically wasn’t working. So then we were like, what if we make it more because we noticed that a lot of information in our culture is translating in different cultures, but specifically, our Arab cultures are transmitted verbally, people respond better to like verbal communication that like has personal interaction. And so we we thought like ‘Hey, how why don’t we use the Muppets?’ Do a video in Arabic so that it’s more verbal and they don’t need to read and write. Also literacy levels varied. So the way we write a consent form will be different than what is actually understood. And that’s where we came up with the idea.

Per Axbom
And can you describe the idea itself in more detail? I mean, what did you expect the outcome to be?

Joyce Rafla
So our original idea was to like, get someone and like communicate it in the dialect with the Muppets, like a q&a, and the idea. And then Sesame picked up the idea because we’re partners. And then they workshopped a script, we all, like, gave feedback on it. And I mean, Kim can tell you more about how the idea saw the light because she like pioneered like the execution of the idea.

Kim Foulds
Yeah, I just thought it was so thoughtful and innovative. And, it came at with this really amazing time where we had just run some research funded by GSNA on some caregiver facing videos, where we had tested a few different things. We were testing, who parents trusted messages from so we tested the same script with three different trusted messengers, a caregiver or social worker and a doctor. And that yielded lots of really valuable insights on who parents want to hear about from, on early childhood development messaging. But then we also learned through testing the the full course of the short form caregiver videos, which started with a short intro from the trusted messenger who ended up being a caregiver.

And it led into a short Muppet segment where the Muppets, the Auckland Simpson muppets and their human, modelled a lot of the things that the trusted messenger had just talked about in a bit more formal language. And then the outro was the caregiver coming back to really wrap up what had just happened in the Muppet scene. And so we found that parents absolutely wanted the expert to tell them sort of the science behind why nutrition or gender equality or empathy are important for children’s healthy development, but that it was the Muppet segment that really hit home for them. It was the informal language, the modelling of the behaviours, the modelling between adult and child Muppets were a proxy for children in this that really had ‘stickiness’ for them. And so this had just happened.

We had all these learnings from these videos when Joyce had come with this idea, and it just was, like, we have to take these learnings from what we’ve understood that caregivers want in videos, even videos with Muppets, and apply that to developing this informed consent video. So we applied that very same structure to the video. So we have an intro from an expert. It leads into the segment where we have a Muppet researcher, discuss the informed consent process with two Muppets who again, proxies for children and their human caregiver. And they go through the process very, very simplified language of your standard informed consent. Here’s I’m describing the study, here’s what the benefits are here with the risks. Do you agree to participate if you don’t agree there are no risks. And we modelled it.

So one of the Muppets was super excited. And she was all in the other muppet, he had some questions, and he was uncomfortable. And ultimately, he decided to not participate. And it was totally fine. And so we really wanted to apply those lessons to this great idea that Joyce and Tarik had come to, and see if this would support the informed consent process. It’s not a replacement for you know, the more formal language, it doesn’t intend to replace it, but a compliment so that parents and kids feel confident where they’re agreeing to feel comfortable about the process, because I know, even if you feel savvy around these sorts of processes, it’s still a little weird. Especially to Joyce’s point, if I’m treating you as a guest, and now you’re asking me some formal stuff, will I participate? Well, what if I don’t feel comfortable? But now, you know, it’s rude to say, to say, I’m not comfortable or to ask you questions. And so we wanted to really model for them in very informal ways, that it’s absolutely okay to ask questions. It’s okay to say no.

James Royal-Lawson
So the meta aspect of this is, it’s fascinating to me that you’ve, you’re doing research about research. So you’re, you’ve got something that’s going on doing real research, and then you’re iterating or researching the bit just before the research. So it’s all very meta. So you, I guess you have challenges with designing just this bit of research as well.

Kim Foulds
Yeah. And I think Joyce can speak to it is that we designed this video on an implementation it didn’t actually work for this first study. Because the first study, we made a pivot to all remote models or remote methods of implementation.

Joyce Rafla
Yeah, well, when, after we were done with the with the video, we were very excited to test it out for the first study that we had originally come up with the idea but we pivoted the study, it was originally a home visiting programme at home, the home visiting very quickly is when a community health worker goes to the family, and they talk to the mothers or the whatever caregivers, regardless of gender, like health and nutrition ideas, early child early stimulation, like what they can do with their children.

So then when COVID hits the home visit and became what we might call a phone visiting. So the visits happened over the phone. And data collection was also pivoted towards being done on the phone. So we wanted to test out the video. But we also as with everything we like test it out with the with the enumerators, the data collectors, and some of them felt like, you know what, now that we’re doing everything remotely, we’re not very sure that sending the video might be the best for that study. And so it was a little disappointing for us. But you know, for that study, it didn’t really work out because we had the baseline, you know, the pre-intervention was done without the video, and then the end line was going to be with the video. So like, practically it wasn’t gonna work. But I think for the follow up for the subsequent study, which I think Kim would know more about, they have used the video.

Kim Foulds
Yeah, so for the following study, we were able to use it. The following study, we’re almost wrapping data analysis up for that is an evaluation of the television show Ahlan Simsim on children’s socio emotional learning. And so we were able, because all of this was done in person, children watched the television show for 12 weeks every day in their classroom, their pre-school class, in their kindergarten classroom. And so the enumerators were able to send the videos via WhatsApp and we found, or the enumerators, NYU, and IRC, found that for families who watched the video, they had, they felt a greater sense of active participation, they felt like they were part of the study, as well.

And that was that’s the dream, right? They are there is no study without families, so that they felt integral to it, and like an active participant is really the ultimate goal aside incredible benefit to it is that it reduced the length of consent, the length of time required for consent by about 15 minutes per family, and the study has over 3000 families. So that’s not an insignificant amount of time. For I think like the 2250 families to actually watch the video. So it really supported, where where it made sense where the actual data collection process mirrored the video, it worked, the lessons learned are that, in order for the informed consent video to work, and for the informal modelling, it really does have to mirror the research process.

So in thinking about how could we improve the process in the future, because for example, we’re hopeful to make an American version of it with the Sesame Street Muppets, having learned so many lessons from this one, writing a whole script that covers remote data collection that covers in person, and then making cuts. So you have let’s say, a 10 minute script that covers any range of possibilities in your research. And then ultimately, maybe you have four versions of that, that have been edited for the different context. So that’s there’s always learnings to be had from these processes. And so that’s a really critical one.

Per Axbom
Definitely. Yeah,

James Royal-Lawson
I think one thing I picked up on was didn’t you have a problem with data usage when you were sending this out? To participants? Mobile data?

Kim Foulds
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, data is very expensive. And so the video, we were hoping to keep the video under five minutes for user experience, we know that shorter videos, especially for grownups, you’re likely to have more engagement. But in order to make sure that we hit everything that we needed to hit, the video, the Arabic language video, I think is a little bit over six. And so that increases data use and so that was certainly an issue with access. So it’s something also in implementation: How do we cover data use? Is there a way that it can be hosted on a data free platform? Is there a way that we can provide a stipend for data coverage while sending the video out. This is certainly something we do for research or for implementation of any sort of intervention. If data is required, we want to make sure that data costs aren’t a barrier to access. So how can we use that same thinking with a video and future use. This is the issue with research, right, the more you learn the the more questions emerge.

Per Axbom
The challenge just stumbling upon that it’s fantastic that you didn’t think about that beforehand. If there’s so many things to think about. It’s just impossible.

Kim Foulds
Yeah. Yeah. You don’t know what you don’t know.

Per Axbom
Yeah

Kim Foulds
And so you get into and you test it? Yep.

James Royal-Lawson
Anyway, you don’t, oh sorry Per, you don’t…

Per Axbom
That’s ok

James Royal-Lawson
..realise the privileged research position you sit in a lot of the time? I mean, I, I’ve never done any research with kids. I’ve actually never done any research with truly deprived communities, I guess. So just that is an eye opener. And then, you know, thinking that data is not just something. We’ve all got fibre, you know, sat here on fibre connections here in Sweden, and on mobile data, I’m not really so worried about that, maybe, although I know my kids complain, they’re going to run out. So it’s just yeah, you’ve really got to think about your own research situation a bit more when, you know, anlayse this.

Kim Foulds
We don’t want barriers to access to be an issue for response participants to be comfortable with the consent process and the research process itself. So it’s something that we have to think about. And in this case, you know, recognising the need to do a better job of it for sure.

Joyce Rafla
But just to piggyback off of that, your observation is one of the like the corner things we think about the privileged position that we go in, as researchers what questions we’re going to ask, how are we going to ask and the informed consent video came from that, trying to like, use our privilege in a way like, to enable and empower the participants to make sure it because informed consent is is so crucial in this situation. Because the privileged position is not just about internet access, or access to electricity. It’s also about understanding what RCTs (Randomized controlled trials) are, what this is really about, and then trying to use that knowledge to explain a lot of things.

So we did contextualise other parts of the written consent form, for example, we were worried that our participants might feel like if they say no, they won’t get any of the services that the partner organisation is providing or other partner or because they do rely on that. So we explicitly stated that. And I don’t claim that we have full understanding of our privileged position as researchers. But it’s a crucial element that we should all be very hyper aware of, in how we ask, what we ask, the safety of the data that we collect. And I think this is a very central piece of the work that we’re trying to get better at.

Per Axbom
I think one big takeaway for me was just hearing how you have one video where the child actually give their consent, and then you have the other video where they don’t give their consent, or the Muppet doesn’t give theirs. Which means that you have the example of what that looks like. And I think even for the type of research that I do in design, research, just user testing websites and stuff. People don’t understand what would it look like to say no, just giving that and then that example is so important to be able to see themselves in that position. And I think actually research results themselves will be just that much better because of it because that means people won’t feel uncomfortable. really wanting to say no, but not able to.

Joyce Rafla
Yeah, we we did that with when we were workshopping the scripts. Both were initially I think, the original version, both were saying yes. And then I was like, how about we make more than someone to say no. Because I knew that might make people look more calm, a little bit more comfortable saying no.

Kim Foulds
Yeah, it was a great idea. And I think it’s that aspect of it is probably one of the most powerful elements of the video is that it’s also a child again, it’s a child asking questions of an adult. And then is free to say no, and there’s no shame. No one says: Are you sure? Come on, you know, that’s there’s no peer pressure effect. It’s just like, Okay. And then we move on to the next thing, right. There’s no, there’s no sort of awkwardness. And I think that is the real heart. Not that we want, you know, we want active participation. I feel like we focused a lot on the No. But I do I think that and Joyce and I’ve talked about that, that’s the critical element of informed consent, right, that you are actually and fully under aware of your rights to participate or not participate. And I really think that that’s the heart of the video that we’ve created for sure.

James Royal-Lawson
And I guess if you, if no one ever said no, then that’s probably a failure in itself, isn’t it? Because, you know, some people must say No, I mean, I don’t believe anything’s 100% in that sense.

Kim Foulds
Yeah, we’ve seen it.

James Royal-Lawson
Okay, I think most of us are probably not gonna be able to produce videos with Muppets in our research. But what would be… What would be the aspects of this that we could all take home? From our research in that, you know, is there a way that we can? Can we use videos, for example, in our research, even without Muppets? Is that something that could make things better?

Kim Foulds
I think we’ve seen it at Sesame, that the power of video, there’s no real substitute for the power of video. It’s engaging, it’s communal, the visual aspects of it. Knowing that, again, that’s not available to most research teams, though I will, the full playlist is available on YouTube. So we have it, I believe in seven, eight languages now. I think making sure that there if you don’t have access to video, I think those are there are a number of ways I’m sure Joyce has some some ideas, too, I think any sort of visual complement to it, whether it’s some sort of handout, or that is informal. If you’re working with communities where there are low literacy rates, making sure that it’s not text-based that you’re able to translate the consent process to, ideally, text-free visual elements to really model it.

And again, highlighting we just talked about this, but highlighting that it is okay to ask questions and it’s okay to say no, at any point in the process, not just during the recruitment. If we’re middle way through baseline data collection, and you’re just like, you know what, this is not working for me that you’re free to, to turn around. I’m sure Joyce has some other thoughtful ideas.

Joyce Rafla
I just think that it also depends on the context. So I think voice notes would work very well for the context where we were doing, because it doesn’t consume as much data. And there’s a lot of like typical informed consent language that you can communicate via voice note, again, to reduce the time of the specifics. So you say the generic stuff on a voice note that you forward. And then the specifics that are related to your specific study can be communicated in person or an another voice note that also really standardises and reduces the time and the data usage.

So that’s another idea for doing that. But it all depends, because in our context, I think we still, unfortunately, could not get to the in person element. But when we were doing in person, there were times where I like, had to assure that the caregiver that she has every right to say no. And then she would say no, just after I calm her down that it’s okay. ‘Yeah, I know, I’m a guest, but it’s really okay. You’re the decision maker.’ And then she’s like, ‘Yeah, I actually don’t feel comfortable,’ you know, which is again, part of the understanding the culture, where we’re doing the research.

Per Axbom
I honestly don’t think I’ve ever felt this excited to actually try out the consent part of my next research. And having all these new ideas about how to visualise more, not necessarily with video, as we talked about, but actually with just different ways of having like a comic book version of the consent form.

Kim Foulds
Yeah, that’s a great idea, especially again, if you want to relay the consent process to young children, using comics is a great idea.

James Royal-Lawson
Perhaps not even just children and a pre-conversation we were talking about the appeal of Muppets even for adults, right? Not exactly. Fun, fun aspects to consent. Informed Consent sounds like it could be a winner no matter what age you are.

Kim Foulds
Adults like fun too.

Per Axbom
Thank you so much, Joyce and Kim, for sharing your work and all these insights. It’s been wonderful.

Joyce Rafla
Thank you for having us.

Kim Foulds
Thank you for having us. This has been great.

James Royal-Lawson
I noted down three words from that interview. Well, a fair few more than that, but just three words particular culture, privilege, trust. I mean, it just listening back to us talking. Just get I get hit in the face time and time again with the privilege that we work in most of the time and you know, where we don’t have to save minutes during research situations so that people can concentrate on providing for their families. You know, we don’t always have to worry about whether we send a clip link to a video rather than audio because of the lack of bandwidth that people are going to have. You know, we don’t maybe we don’t pay attention to the cultural norms in the in the home or family situation or you know, social contexts like carer, parent, child, gender. And then some of those things I think we maybe bulldoze, ignore and run through.

Per Axbom
Yeah. And people just doing things out of politeness they’re inviting you in and they don’t know that they can say no, it’s so fascinating for me this whole thing that how the lengths they are going to Kim and Joyce to actually do the right thing to actually make sure that people understand what’s going on, that they have human rights, they have the right to say no at all times. So they’re, they’re doing so much good work beyond just the actual research and in informing people and letting people know that you are entitled to a voice, which is fascinating.

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah and the, you know, the trust or the respect there as well. I mean, that whole section that we talked about the Are you sure question? You don’t put that question to them, you just use go, okay. You know, respect their decision.

Per Axbom
You don’t want to continue? That’s fine. I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna say anything more, because that’s your decision. That’s, I mean, wonderful. I mean, in real life, and in everyday life, you get that question all the time? Do you want some more food? No. Are you sure?

James Royal-Lawson
You get what you’re gonna come with me? No. Are you sure? Thinking to research again. You know, you’ve got five interviews booked for that day, as part of your research project, and you know, they come in and you do the whole consent thing informed consent with them, and they say, ‘No, I actually don’t feel comfortable this.’ I mean, you’re gonna panic at the fact that maybe five people have said, ‘Actually, I don’t feel comfortable this’ because it’s going to screw up your entire research project, you maybe don’t have budget to book, the time or the possibility to book another five, another day, because these ones have said ‘no’, so just my brain starts unravelling, about the ways that we ignore.

Per Axbom
What you’re saying is we don’t have the budget to actually respect people and treat them with dignity, and to actually be good people. We don’t have the budget for that.

James Royal-Lawson
I think what I’m what I’m implying Per is, I don’t think we have the culture in design or design research to gather informed consent.

Per Axbom
Yeah. Yeah, that’s what I meant when we actually don’t tell people what’s the reason for them participating. What is the benefit, societal benefit, or some sort of larger benefit than them actually getting the cinema ticket? We don’t want them to understand we just want them to answer our questions.

James Royal-Lawson
I mean, I alluded to at the beginning, I said at the beginning, that most of the time, this is for us in design research, it’s been a legal paper that we need to get people to sign. It’s all about covering the organization’s backside. And not really about caring if someone really does consent in an informed way.

Per Axbom
Because if you did care, and you were actually successful at it, and much, much better at it, the success indicator, the key performance indicator for doing a good job with informed consent, is that more people will say no, and that will cost you more.

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah. As you said in an interview, I mean, if no one ever says no, then I think that I mean, 100% of anything is normally a bit suspicious.

Per Axbom
Yeah.

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah. Especially when it comes to this question about informed consent and getting people to actually genuinely understand what they’re dealing with. I mean, okay, you might argue that some of the things that we research are really quite innocent. And, and, you know, maybe that’s paints a picture of simplified consent.

Per Axbom
Sure, but then there’s the usage question, what questions we ask where the data is stored. So many things going on, related to the actual interview process, that people don’t really understand either.

James Royal-Lawson
Even even security risk power. I mean, you know, like, at what point would something be anonymized? I mean, are you recording it video wise, so you know, what point we get rid the video this, there’s many more things that you might want to have to understand about what the possible implications or possible outcomes that might happen because you participated.

Per Axbom
I also found it fascinating that the actual asking of consent actually will scare people as well in cultures where you are not used to being asked.

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah.

Per Axbom
So the fact that you’re asking me is that people will feel suspicious of you. And also the whole thing with is it a scam because you’re doing it over the phone as well? How do you make sure that you get gained trust over a phone call? There are so many really difficult things to actually contend with here because sometimes if even if you do care as much as Kim and Joyce, it’s still really difficult. And you still, as they said, you make a lot of mistakes. But it’s so important that we have this conversation and talk about it more. I feel I want to do so much more now that I actually talked to them. And I think that’s a success for this episode, is that so much insight? Like what you start saying with privilege? Why? Why am I not checking my privilege more often?

James Royal-Lawson
I think what I’m worried about, though, is, is that informed consent is possibly not even possible in business environments.

Per Axbom
That sounds scary James.

James Royal-Lawson
I mean, just thinking again, about the budgeting and kind of the pressure you have and I mean, all businesses is there is a degree of nudging going on and and coercion going on. I mean, that’s how it works. I mean, but you’ve just hoping in most situations, that it’s going to be a mutually beneficial outcome. But then that feeds into…

Per Axbom
Even if you invent the need for something…

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah, but it still feeds into the fact that you’re, you’re funnelling people in a certain way. So you’re, you know, you’re always, you’re always bouncing like our websites, our designers themselves, I mean, go back to the Are you sure question? I mean, that’s something we bake into our designs to kind of, you know, try to be reassuring that you can delete that. And we mean, you’ve argued about that before, you’re gonna delete that, are you sure. It’s like, you know, let them delete it, and then make it easy for them to undo it is what we’ve talked about there. But we just do have that culture of, of nudging towards our preferred outcome the whole time. And I think that’s, I think that’s reflected in research as well.

Per Axbom
So what episodes should people listen to next?

James Royal-Lawson
194 Research on the Fly with Cyd Harrell.

Per Axbom
Oh, yeah, this is one of my favourite episodes, where Cyd talks about her experiences doing all kinds of different user research. And she gets into approaching people and how your body language says a lot about how you help people gain trust for you to sort of what we talked about here as well. But also one of my favourite things from that episode is what you should have in your go bag, kit bag that you always have on the ready to get with you when you want to do research often with Gorilla research.

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah, that was a very, very useful fun episode. And Cyd does a lot of lot of good stuff and reflecting as well on what she does and trying to always be a better researcher.

Per Axbom
Remember to keep moving.

James Royal-Lawson
See you on the other side.

[Music]

Per Axbom
So my sister asked me last week who my favourite vampire is.

James Royal-Lawson
Okay, go on. Who is it? Yeah,

Per Axbom
I said the Muppet from Sesame Street. She said he doesn’t count. So I said of course. I assure you he does.