A transcript of Episode 296 of UX Podcast. James Royal-Lawson and Per Axbom are joined by Tim Yeo to discuss introvert designers and how embrace introversion as a superpower in your teams.
This transcript has been machine generated and checked by Marc Prior.
Transcript
Per Axbom
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Computer voice
UX podcast episode 296.
[Music]
James Royal-Lawson
Hello, everybody. Welcome to UX Podcast coming to you from Stockholm, Sweden. We are your hosts, James Royal-Lawson…
Per Axbom
…and Per Axbom.
James Royal-Lawson
Bouncing business technology, people and society with listeners all over the world, including Australia.
Per Axbom
Yeah. And joining us today is Tim Yeo and Tim coaches introverts to have impact and influence without pretending to be extroverts at The Quiet Achiever. And this is a topic that really resonates with us as I think both James and I, we identify quite strongly as introverts, but also manage to have an impact in the industry, for example, through the podcast.
James Royal-Lawson
Tim, is also a design leader, speaker and a bookbinder, really interesting that one, and has a reputation for saying complex things simply, which, know that is something that we definitely appreciate from our podcast guests. Now, in one of Tim’s articles, Tim shared a lightbulb joke. Now, normally, we finish our shows with terrible dad jokes. But this time, I think it’s a nice idea for us to start with one because it’ll be — I think it’s a pretty good introduction to the topic of introversion that we’re going to cover today.
[music]
James Royal-Lawson
How many introverts does it take to screw in a light bulb?
Per Axbom
Why does it have to be a group activity? Welcome to the show, Tim. We love that you have that joke, since we always like James said, we have these dad jokes. And I think this, this kind of addresses some things about introversion that people have this sometimes misunderstanding about what is introversion. And I know that people conflate it with being shy and stuff like that. But give us a bit of an introduction to this topic. What does it mean to be an introvert?
Tim Yeo
Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me. And for a long time in my life in my career, there wasn’t a vocabulary, there wasn’t a way to describe what I felt I was. I think it was in 2012, when I watched a TED Talk by Susan Cain, called The power of introverts. And it was really light bulb moment for me, really even having that language, hearing somebody else about their struggles and what it was like growing up, and not really feeling understood, not feeling as if you fit in. And just being quiet, like when you hear her talk, again, is still one of the most popular talks on TED Talks. And hearing her describe how, when she was a child, growing up in her family, reading books on her own quietly, even as a family as a group activity was the norm. And then all sudden, being thrown into the deep end of the working world where it’s a lot of extraversion, where there’s a picture of what a leader looks like. And it looks like very much like an extroverted style of leadership.
And it was really only from listening to that talk, and then comparing that with my own experience working design for the last 18 years in Singapore and in Australia, and it’s very much the same parallel. So we live in a world that desires this extrovert ideal of what leaders look like. And even early in my career, I’ve always felt like I wanted to make a difference, to lead and to care for a group of people and manage and lead them. But, in contrast that is always this picture of what society paints a leader looks like. I think that’s true. I think that’s true in Asia. I think that’s true in Australia. And in the conversations that I’ve had with coaches, people that I’ve coached in the US, and in the UK, and everywhere else, that same social expectation of what a leader looks like, is still very much true around the world. So I felt almost like a need to actually share some of the things that I learned in the time of my way of working that has allowed me to have impact, without trying to be or pretending to be an extrovert.
Because the truth is for a very long time for a very, very long time, I pretended. I thought that’s what a leader needed to be. So I tried very hard to pretend and be able to give speeches at the drop of a hat and to try and be that model of what society says a leader looks like. And for a while it worked. But it was always very tiring. And I always finish each of those encounters just feeling completely drained. And it was only over time that I realised you know what, like, there has to be a better way, there has to be another way that feels a lot more authentic, that’s very much me. Another way that I can operate that will allow me to have impact without me trying to be like somebody else. So that’s really where things really started for me. And it started from actually watching Susan Cain’s talk on TED talk called The power of Introverts. That really was that light bulb moment for me.
James Royal-Lawson
I think I recognise the light bulb moment, because as Per said in the intro, both me and Per, we’re actually ambiverts we’re introverted extroverts or whatever phrase you want to describe it. And for me, that’s something I didn’t understand either. For most of my time growing up, that always been the chatty child — I can talk anytime with [it] kind of felt like with anyone, but at the same time, there were situations where I really, really wanted to be, you know, by myself or I enjoy being by myself. And that contrast between being able to be extrovert at times, and then a lot of time, just really, really not wanting to partake in extrovert activities, creates anxiety, creates a feeling of, well I know that’s not me all the time. And you know, when you get an expectation, because you could you do do talks, like you know we do podcasts, we do presentations, we do things where that fits more into the extrovert skill set, then you then lay out an expectation that you can deliver that on demand, all the time, whenever someone else wants you to be extrovert. And that’s not how it works. And it’s a struggle to deal with that expectation.
Tim Yeo
I think what really nailed it for me, was really understanding that it’s a spectrum. Right? It depends on context, the people that are around you, at the time, I could be the most extroverted person, if I’m around my family or close friends, and it’s a safe environment. And known people for long periods of time, you know, I could be, I could have those kinds of extroverted tendencies. But then you put me in a room, like in a networking session, pre COVID. And I walk into a room, and I don’t know anyone in this room. And it’s the first time seeing these people, you know, and I’m there. I don’t know anybody, and it feels awkward. I try to exchange eye contact with people and they’re not exchanging eye contact with me. And I find myself just standing in the corner of the room wishing that, you know, why was I here? Like, why did I try to even come here in the first place. Like, I just want to go home and, you know, watch Netflix or just read my book, like it really depends and changes on the context and the people that around you at the time. That really determines your behaviour.
James Royal-Lawson
Yeah, I think I noticed, as well, living in Sweden, and being in a lot of situations where I’m speaking Swedish, then I’ve realised as well, that there’s yet another angle to the spectrum is kind of Swedish James and English James, and how my social –my extrovert introvert balance is, when I’m speaking Swedish is different to how it is when I’m speaking English. And that’s also difficult for other people to understand and me to understand, I have to deal with at times.
Tim Yeo
Yeah, I mean, one of the things that I struggled with when I first came to Australia was when people asked me, “how are you?” What I learned was sometimes they’re saying how are you as a way to say hi, they are not really asking you how you are. But when I came here to a new country, I actually told them how I was. So if I was having a bad day, I’ll tell them, “Oh, this thing happened and that other” and then the conversation will go on five minutes too long. And yeah, some of these social norms are things that you have to learn. And some of them are more awkward than others. But yeah.
Per Axbom
I can really identify with that. When you hear people ask, “how are you?” my instinct is to actually respond to how I’m doing. But really they just want to hear “how are you?” back and that’s it. What I really appreciate about your message is that you’re helping people understand that they don’t have to abandon their true selves and be someone else. But they can actually still be who they are, and cope with the situations that sometimes would appear challenging to introverts, because they don’t have the toolset or the skill set to actually start. Like networking and doing small talk, like we give an example of. And that for me, it sort of goes back all the way to schools and how you were always encouraged, you need to raise your hand, you need to speak up more, because that’s expected of you. And so that, all of that built into that thing where you thought, well, there must be something wrong with me because other people can do this. But what you’re saying is that there’s absolutely nothing wrong with you. It’s just another way of being and you can still be, as you advocate for, you can still be a really good leader with this skill set.
Tim Yeo
Yeah, I mean, I heard you use the word Per, use the word cope, and I think cope is a good word. But what I think is even better word is if we can see the world differently and see that our introverted ways is actually a superpower. You know, a lot of the time with extroverted leadership, and there are studies done with this. Extroverted leaders may feel a lot more threatened if, let’s say people would offer an opposing view. Whereas introverted leaders might be more willing to listen, if a better viewpoint comes up. I think there are traits like willingness to learn, to observe and listen, all of these traits, none of which are only unique to introverts. It’s just that if you are the kind of person that’s happy to listen and to soak in and understand and observe, and you’re comfortable being with quiet, there’s probably a lot more things that my might come to you. Then if somebody might be a lot more energised, for example, and to be wanting to seek out that kind of stimulation, because you know, that’s what they crave. And it’s just changing a scene there and using those as strengths, rather than — yeah, seeing those as superpowers and as strengths.
James Royal-Lawson
Is it always the case? Do you think then that it’s always best to have an introvert as a leader? Or are there still kind of situations where the superpower of being an introverted leader doesn’t work. And that we should maybe have an extrovert as a leader?
Tim Yeo
Well, that’s the thing. It’s something that I am trying to actively do more of as part of The quiet achiever, because a lot of the time, a lot of people that are leaders in our design industry that you and I both know, they don’t put a nametag on themselves and say, I’m an introvert, you know, this is who I am. And for other introverts that are struggling and seeing people, introverts in leadership positions, it’s not an automatic thing. So one thing that I did try to do was simply to go out to network and to find design leaders that I felt might have been introverts, so that other introverts like myself, who might be starting out, have some kind of model to say that you know, what, being who you are, that’s also who I am.
And I’ve been doing this, for example, if a design leader like Bob Baxley, for example, he’s been doing this for way longer, and nobody — I just had a suspicion that he was an introvert. I think it might have come up in one of the podcasts that I heard him give. And I reached out and I said, Yeah, I am an introvert. And then I asked him, if you would like to speak at one of our events, and he hasn’t yet but he will. But I did the same thing with a few other design leaders. And the whole goal is really to let people see that, yeah, you know what, yes, we may not wear a nametag and say that we’re a design leader and an introvert but I think it’s important that people see that we are out there. Yeah, maybe we’re quieter, maybe you don’t advertise it, but also for them, to hear their story so that they can feel seen and also give them the confidence that yeah, just being an introvert, and to achieve that level of success is possible. It is definitely something that they can achieve as well.
Per Axbom
Would it would it be fair to say then that the important thing is for a leader to understand that people on their team could be introverts or extroverts and that they need to be accommodated in different ways.
Tim Yeo
Yeah. So there are a couple of things there. Team selection, if you yourself are an introverted leader, you know, there’s a lot of the introverts that I’ve coached, a lot of designers that I’ve coached have tended towards introversion. I don’t know why that’s just the case. My suspicion has been that if you like activity where you are on your own quietly with your headphones on, pushing pixels for hours in a day. And if that task does not bring you energy, it’s probably not an occupation that you have for a very long time. And it’s somehow through the progression of how people progress in careers designers who are really good at design then find themselves in leadership positions, because, you know, that’s how, for a lot of people, career growth happens. You’re really good at doing an IC job. And then you’re promoted become people manager, or a leader of a function. And then oftentimes, they just realise “I spend my whole career getting so good at doing this one thing. And then all of a sudden, I am responsible for people and doing performance reviews, and hiring and interviewing and giving public… giving presentations at the drop of a hat. All of a sudden, I have this whirl of activities that require skill sets that I do not have. It’s a very confronting situation.
I think we’ve heard a lot about impostor syndrome, or people struggling, feeling like they’re faking it until they’re making it. But I think the message I do want to give is that you know, what, actually, all the skills that got you here, they can be that foundation layer that actually allows you to do that next thing very well, like key things that come naturally to a lot of introverts I speak to is listening. Listening more than speaking, trying to read the room and understand what’s going on. What are people’s intentions? I think these are all things that in the conversations I’ve had with introverts are things that come much more naturally. And in that sense, that makes it a superpower.
James Royal-Lawson
Yeah, I think that’s an excellent point there, of reading the room. And I think that’s maybe something where well, sort of introvert extroverts also can come into the game even more, because well I noticed over the years, and I’ve become aware of the fact that people are even less likely to talk than me in meetings. So then you you do try and open the door to allow them in. And I’m gonna guess and say that maybe being an introvert extrovert means that a more understanding to the fact that they exist. And if I was a pure extrovert, where I don’t even think about the door needing to open it, because I’m already there in the doorway. And that’s something definitely I think, I’d like to help with…
Tim Yeo
… which comes to the second thing that I mentioned earlier. Like, I think a lot of people don’t realise that, if you’re new manager, either you inherited a team, or if you do have a current team, as a leader, you can actually design the kind of team that you want to have. You can choose the kind of people that you want to hire, you can choose the kinds of behaviours that the team should operate under, you can choose how the culture that you want to live, like, all these behaviours, all these things are really things that you as a design leader, that’s, that’s your job, you know, you get to choose what kind of team you want to be. And I think a lot of times people don’t realise they kind of just inherit it, or this is the way that things are. But actually, you could intentionally say that these are the ways that we operate. When we’re in a group environment, you know, no one gets to hog the microphone, we get the chance to actually pass the microphone to everyone so that everyone does have a turn to say something. And so that we can open up the conversation to even the quieter ones in the room. I think that’s the key thing. People have to realise, people in leadership positions, if you are [a] design leader then, yes, if you are responsible for group of people, you can actually design the kind of team you want to be.
Per Axbom
Yeah. That makes me think of something I’ve really appreciated over the years. And I’ve been lucky to have like managers who have seen that I don’t like to occupy the room that much. I’m quiet in meetings. But after a while, they ask me directly, what do you think about this Per? That gives me the space and means that people will then quiet down and won’t interrupt me because then I have a space to say something. Obviously, that won’t work for everyone. But in some settings that has really been excellent for me to get that space.
Tim Yeo
Yeah.
Per Axbom
I know that’s something that you have also mentioned is that if you are like an introvert design leader, that you should think of hiring social butterflies that you can lean on. Which was interesting, because that means that they will actually occupy the time of the people who might interrupt you so that you can actually focus on the things that you want as well.
Tim Yeo
Yeah, and that is one of the things that you can do as a design leader. I mean, today in the best of teams we already hire and recruit so that we have diverse teams. This is just one other aspect of neurodiversity to hire against. And, you know, depending on your hiring practices, it’s never good, in my opinion, to hire people who are all the same. You get homogeneous teams, get homogeneous ideas. And if you want compelling, different ideas that make a difference, you want people from different perspectives. And introversion and reversion introvert extraversion is just one other way that you could fill out your team with. And then hiring a social butterfly was really just something that I learned because somehow in the teams I’ve had, I’ve always really enjoyed having them on the team. Because clearly, networking doesn’t come naturally to me. And it still doesn’t come naturally to me. And having someone like that in the team, doesn’t absolve me from the need to network and to show upwhen I need to. But it does take the pressure off when there are times when I just want to sit back and listen, not to have to do those things that they can actually pick up the baton in and do the things for me.
James Royal-Lawson
Yeah, I suppose yeah, rather than you have to go out there and make first contact and be The Networker. You’ve got your social butterfly who effectively warms up leads for you. It’s like, oh, yeah, you can even talk to that manager or that person. They’re the one you should talk to. And you’re ushered in, which is probably I guess, a bit more, or you feel more at ease without that entrance.
Tim Yeo
Oh, yeah. And butterflies do what butterflies do. Like I remember one story where there was an extrovert on our team, and she had been at the company for maybe a week. And by that time, she’s already met the heads of, the CEOs and the CFO. And I have no idea how she did that. But she can open up doors and conversations, she can share what she took. And she goes share with them what she’s doing what the team is doing. And that just comes very naturally to the person.
Per Axbom
But it also makes me think that the the opposite that this may be a bias or prejudice that I have the opposite, is more difficult to argue for. So if you have an extroverted design leader, and you have a team full of extroverts, how do you help them understand the benefit of hiring an introvert? Because I am thinking now that well their prejudice would be that they wouldn’t fit on the team because they aren’t as open or won’t want to attend the same number of meetings or the same number of after work events, stuff like that. So how would you encourage extrovert teams to hire introverts?
Tim Yeo
I don’t know, because I haven’t seen that many.
Per Axbom
Ah interesting.
Tim Yeo
I mean, I think one of the earlier… most of the introverts, most of the designers that I’ve met have been tending towards introverts. If there are any other extroverted designers and design leaders out there, and you are clearly an extrovert, send me an email, I would love to talk to you. I would love to talk about your teams, and we can figure this out how you operate. But aside from a couple of people that I’ve met, like Max Hanley and Peter Marie Holtz, yeah, aside from the two of them, I couldn’t tell you any other design leader that I have interacted with that’s clearly an extrovert. Most of them have been introverts. Again, that’s a sweeping statement. And the offer still stands. Please, I would love to talk to you if you feel like you’re an extrovert…
Tim Yeo
…well that’s super interesting. Because does that mean that the design profession naturally attracts introverts? Do you think so?
Tim Yeo
I don’t know. I can only speak from my own experience. Just looking at this podcast where we have yourself Per and James, both of you identify as maybe introverts or maybe an ambivert. But I do think if your job is to design and push pixels, and to do the thing that designers do for long periods of time, working in an open plan office designers had to learn how to get Bose headphones to find the peace and quiet that they need so that they don’t get frequently interrupted. I think with a lot of the engineering peers that I used to work with as well. I would say most of them will also tend towards introversion. Maybe it’s just a thing about our industry and the people that are in it.
Per Axbom
Yeah.
James Royal-Lawson
It’s really interesting. Some years ago we did a podcast about impostor syndrome. And the research that was connected to that interview was showing about how the prevalence of imposter syndrome in designers was was higher than in other industries and there’s also more female designers than male. Or at least, this is kind of research. So both those things are higher. So there is something about our industry, that clearly isn’t quite, you know, average in many aspects, whether it’s impostor syndrome, and gender, and so on, that there’s complex aspects to who we are as a industry.
Tim Yeo
Yeah, sounds like, Per and James, you guys should do a survey, through your podcast, and see how people identify. And yeah, I’ll be curious to find out.
Per Axbom
One thing that I wanted to get to was actually your practical advice on tools and behaviours that you sort of can help you get over, I used the word cope, which you told me to avoid a bit. But I just wanted to mention one tool that I’ve used a lot that people are surprised by, but it helps me so much, and that is recording a video of yourself. And you gave the example of when you’re calling to a meeting that you would actually record the video, or instead of having a meeting, but I do it so often now, it’s just become natural to me that I am supposed to describe a new design sketch or something, I record the video and I can send it around. And I don’t have to be in front of a person when I do it. Which is beneficial in so many ways.
Tim Yeo
And I’m so glad that you brought up that point. Because at the onset of COVID, and asynchronous work and working remote, a lot of people were struggling with Zoom fatigue, too many meetings. So many companies couldn’t figure out how to work remote. Like everyone, all of a sudden, just having to figure this out. This was the world’s largest social experiment of how to actually work remotely and for all our companies and a lot of places that I’ve been, the way that they work remote is to take everything that they did in an office and copy paste into a remote environment. But after two and a half years of working this way, I think we all can agree that that doesn’t work. That you know, people when they do work remote, especially during in the middle of a pandemic, you don’t just have work, you have people at home, children, people that need your attention, time and care. That working that time from nine to five or nine to six, chained to your desk in front of your computer just doesn’t work anymore. And people struggle.
Then one of the ways, one of the techniques that I recommended was to actually record a video of yourself. Because one of the things that I’ve heard from coaching introverts is people sometimes find it hard to speak up. And when they don’t, they don’t get the practice. So it’s a vicious cycle, where you don’t speak up, you don’t present because you don’t like it, so you don’t do it. And then you just get quieter and quieter and quieter. So recording a video of yourself is actually a really good thing. Because number one you get to practise, you get to get a really good take. And then once you feel like you’ve had the best version of yourself doing the thing, you can just send it out. And the other benefit is that nowadays a video, you actually save yourself time, you can save yourself from doing those same monologue presentations again, because anytime somebody wants to know about this thing that you did, is not a meeting anymore. It’s not a meeting, it’s a five minute video that you can just send to them. And they can watch it in their own time at 9pm after the kids are in bed. And that’s when they perform at their best.
So it’s not just you know, having to do less meetings. But it’s also the virality of how you know your message gets to live on. Even when you are asleep. You don’t have to be awake to deliver the message. People could be sharing and re-sharing this presentation that you did. And the compounding effect here is that you as an introvert having done a short five minute presentation, all of a sudden, people around the company might be watching what you have to say about a particular design. And this whole time, no one can interrupt you. You know you are… it’s a video. They’re watching it, you’ve done it, you’ve delivered it. They’ve sent it off. And yeah, it’s really been a very good piece of practical advice.
The challenge here though, is like I think James was saying at the beginning, when James was sharing that he had this record of the song that he sang over 30 years ago and he hasn’t listened to it before. The first few times that you watch a video of yourself. It is gonna be very, very, very uncomfortable. You will probably hear your own voice and you’re wondering, well, do I sound that high pitched? Because the voice that we hear when we’re speaking live is usually… what was it? When you watch a video of yourself, your voice sounds two octaves higher than you think it is. I think that’s what the research says. So the first few times when you hear yourself speaking, you will feel uncomfortable, you will notice the little things they say, like the umms or the ahhs. And then it just feels horrible. But yeah, well, I think the reassuring thing, I like to tell the listeners, is you will feel a lot more comfortable. And you’ll get better at it. And it’s a really good technique to try and increase your own visibility.
James Royal-Lawson
I had, I was thinking back now to to the joke, we started off the show with: how many designers does it take to change a lightbulb? And the answer to the joke or the response to the joke is, well, why does it have to be a team activity? And I’ve seen that we’ve talked a lot about meetings and so on. Do we have to have team activities? Do we have to have meetings?
Tim Yeo
A general rule that I have these days, is if it’s a monologue, if it’s not something where you actually want to build on an idea, if it’s a monologue, it doesn’t have to be a meeting. I’ve been in so many meetings where it’s an opportunity for someone to download what they’re thinking, or an opportunity for somebody that hasn’t had the time to prepare, and they just want to show up and perform. And to download and show it that way. I think a powerful way of working asynchronously, is really just you know, instead of a meeting, just taking a time a little bit more time to just deliver this message through through a video, for example, as one example. And then people can watch that when they are at their best.
James Royal-Lawson
I think as well you know, I feel comfortable. Or there’s a lot of situations where having a conversation with another human just one on one is something which feels much more productive.
Tim Yeo
Yeah, and like brainstorming ideation sessions. A lot of times, I think a lot of people I’ve spoken to struggle about performing on the spot. Like you have this expectation that if you book a one hour meeting, and everyone shows up, nobody’s heard of what you’re going to brainstorm. And all of a sudden, people are expected to come up with the best ideas ever. On the spot. I think I can’t think of many stories that I’ve heard of the best product decisions, or ideas that have come up in situations this way. I think one of our superpowers with introverts is we tend to prepare, having that focused effort beforehand, thinking about what we want to do, and then showing up, not with the final script, right? But just having enough time to actually quietly think and process. So that you can bring those ideas and be your best self in that team setting. I think a lot of people, a lot of meetings will be much more productively run if we actually gave people the chance to be prepared. And that’s true for both extroverts and introverts.
Per Axbom
That’s a wonderful note to end on. Thank you for joining us today Tim.
Tim Yeo
Thank you so much for having me.
[music]
Per Axbom
I think honestly, that this is one of those interviews, I’m actually going to remind myself to go back and listen to regularly, at least once a year. Because it’s one of those things that it’s just so nice to be able to sit down and talk about being different or being different to what expectations may be…
James Royal-Lawson
…or the norm as well.
Per Axbom
Exactly.
James Royal-Lawson
…maybe what’s perceived as the norm…
Per Axbom
… and being open about it and just recognising that there’s nothing wrong with me. I just like doing things a different way than usually people expect you to do it or is idealised I think as the behaviour. I mean, especially I think you and I, but you mentioned on the episode, but we do talks, we do this and we are quite present and active in the industry, but still, but the way we actually recuperate is being by ourselves and reflecting and analysing and spending all that alone time as well.
James Royal-Lawson
Yeah, and I’m not a social butterfly. Using the example that Tim gave from the interview. Reflecting on what he said there I can see going back over the years that yeah, I rely on other people to be that social butterfly. As I’ve never been comfortable with doing that and building up those networks and so on. And yeah, I think it’s important for us to create that space. To be more open about who we are and not try and kind of fake it till we make it, I guess. That’s something made me think about playing cricket. As I play cricket as one of my hobbies. And when I’m batting, I’m not an aggressive batter, which is not a great thing in the format of cricket I play because you really do need need to score some runs. But it’s not my natural game, and I tried to be more aggressive. And I get told though “No, don’t James, play your natural game”. And if I do play my natural game, I actually play better.
Per Axbom
Exactly.
James Royal-Lawson
And this is something you see coming up again, and again, that you know, don’t try to be something you’re not. Whether it’s living up to expectations in social media or your career, or sport.
Per Axbom
Yeah. And that makes me think of just my mother telling me as a child, just remember to be yourself. And then I spent 30 years being someone else and then realised, oh, she was right. It’s much nicer being myself.
Per Axbom
[laughs]
James Royal-Lawson
But as we said there, that important flipside of this, if you are being yourself, then we’ve really got to have climates and and cultures that allow you to be yourself, and aren’t judgmental and aren’t kind of like shutting doors on you and closing leads and so on. And yeah, that’s not always the case.
Per Axbom
Yeah.
James Royal-Lawson
Which is what Tim is trying to build up here and encourage and, you know, developing leaders, especially design leaders.
Per Axbom
Exactly.
James Royal-Lawson
Also kind of wondered about designers being doomed to be ambiverts. What I mean by that…
Per Axbom
…that was actually super interesting. What his experience with the designers being most not being extroverts at all, his not coming across many extroverts. That was really interesting.
James Royal-Lawson
Yeah, that they’re all, everyone’s — well not everyone — in his experience, are introverts. And that’s, I mean, I can really understand that and relate to it. And his explanation about that, or his idea behind, it was really interesting that when we we as designers do a little bit of thinking time design time in our design bubbles. But it’s not something we can’t spend all our careers inside those design bubbles, we have to come out of them. And we have to communicate our designs, we have to hand over things to other colleagues, we have to work in teams to produce these things at times. So, say about designers, maybe we’re doomed to be ambiverts. And that we have to work alone, we have to work together. And that’s a really interesting thing to reflect on, from a team building perspective.
Per Axbom
Yeah, exactly. And especially as you’re talking about diversifying the team, as Tim did. What does that mean? I mean, for me, it means then that you need to be more open about who you are, so that we can cooperate in ways that make sense to each individual, that allow people to be the versions of themselves, that they enjoy being. That doesn’t mean that people can change and evolve and be something different in the future. But it means that we need to keep that conversation open and ongoing.
James Royal-Lawson
Yeah, it’s a multi-dimensional spectrum that we got to deal with when trying to build a balanced team. I guess the other question, another thing that I thought was, that comes out from that is, when you’re asked to be a team player.
Per Axbom
Yeah.
James Royal-Lawson
….that, you know, I don’t spend all my time looking at job ads. But it’s one of those things that traditionally comes up in job ads, they say, you’ve got to be a team player. And I’ve been reflecting a fair bit on that…
Per Axbom
I guess that can essentially mean anything.
James Royal-Lawson
Yeah, well. How can you judge what a team is without knowing the culture of that team? So if you’re a team player, it depends on how that team plays. So how can you reply to that question in a recruitment situation.
Per Axbom
…for me, though, I mean, thinking because in using the word team when you were talking about cricket earlier. And for me, it means that your friend’s telling you, “no, James play, like yourself”, they are actually being team players, because they’re helping you be a better version, that helps the team in the end. Yeah. Because it reminds me of that cartoon I’ve seen I don’t know the exact words but it’s one extrovert person, talking to an introvert and saying that I can help you be more extrovert and, and so on. And the introvert replies, Well, I can help you be more introvert. Well, and the extrovert, of course, replies, “Well, there’s nothing wrong with me”. To which the introvert says, “well, there’s nothing wrong with me either.” And we have to just get away from this thought process that there’s something wrong with introverts, there’s nothing wrong. It’s just that we do things differently.
James Royal-Lawson
Yeah. And, and we are all different and all quite complex.
Per Axbom
Exactly.
James Royal-Lawson
…you know, yeah, we aren’t gonna get all put into the little round hole all the time.
Per Axbom
I would love to hear feedback. And I was enticed by that suggestion he had about doing a survey. I don’t think we’ll maybe get to that. But it will just be nice having some feedback from people on how this episode made them reflect upon themselves and their teammates.
James Royal-Lawson
And also more than welcome to hear from you. If you say you’re an… if you self-label as an extrovert or in traits. Or maybe you don’t want to be labelled at all.
Per Axbom
Exactly.
James Royal-Lawson
And I think you can’t really get away from the fact that recommended listening for this episode is probably going to have to be Impostor syndrome.
Per Axbom
Of course.
James Royal-Lawson
…which made me, I follow that one, when you actually said just now about how there were certain episodes that you think you should listen to every year. And I agree with you. There is a number of podcast episodes from us that I should go back to and listen to regularly because they are really healthy. The imposter syndrome episode is one of them.
Per Axbom
And I think that is actually one of our most listened to episodes looking at the stats.
James Royal-Lawson
It is over the years. But if you’ve already listened to that, because given that it’s one the most listened to episodes that you possibly have, then, I haven’t listened to this one in a while. But I remember being incredibly blown away by the feeling and impression I got when listening to the episode. That was episode 173. Building a team with Alissa Briggs.
Per Axbom
Ooh, good one. Yes.
James Royal-Lawson
So, you know, to listen back to that now and reflect back on the advice that Alissa had about building design teams. And that’s about five years ago, I think, that episode.
Per Axbom
I’m gonna use my exit phrase now to avoid further conversation. Remember to keep moving.
James Royal-Lawson
See you on the other side.
[music]
This is a transcript of a conversation between James Royal-Lawson, Per Axbom and Tim Yeo recorded in June 2022 and published as episode 296 of UX Podcast.