A transcript of Episode 259 of UX Podcast. James Royal-Lawson and Per Axbom are joined by Rishma Hansil to discuss Japanese design culture and how this impacts digital design in Japan.
This transcript has been machine generated and checked by Tristan Schaaf.
Transcript
James Royal-Lawson
Thank you to everyone who is helping us with our transcripts. You’re doing a great job helping us make sure they’re published together with the podcast. If you’d also like to help out with publishing, just email us at hey@uxpodcast.com. That’s h e y or h e j (hej@uxpodcast.com).
Computer voice
UX podcast episode 259.
Per Axbom
Hello, I’m Per Axbom.
James Royal-Lawson
And I’m James Royal-Lawson.
Per Axbom
And this is UX podcast. We’re in Stockholm, Sweden, and you’re listening in 198 countries and territories in the world from Benin to Montenegro.
James Royal-Lawson
Rishma Hansil is a UX designer working with implementing technology, best learning strategies in language education, in Tokyo, Japan. She’s written some really enlightening and interesting articles on Japanese UX, and web design,
Per Axbom
Originally from Trinidad and Tobago, Rishma is not herself from Japan, but has over the last five years have been immersing herself in the culture and language, making her a suitable mediator for us to begin to dip our toes in the uniqueness that is Japanese design.
James Royal-Lawson
And stay tuned after our chat with Rishma for our post interview thoughts and reflections.
[Music]
I’m just reflecting on the fact that, is it maybe — with us who live in and working countries with the Roman alphabet — is that kind of something that we get lost in that world of Roman alphabet and we kind of push away and we kind of don’t really understand all these things that are in different alphabets? But I don’t really know if that’s maybe just how it is with that lens that we have from where we are. That’s where I live and work. But how does Japanese design and websites look very different? How does it look from from your side?
Rishma Hansil
So I think one of the biggest things is just how much information you can receive in a very short number of characters. So in Japan, they use three types of scripts. So kanji, which comes from like the Chinese traditional characters, and those are more like picture graphs that contain so much information in just one character. And then there’s the hiragana, and katakana, which are the Japanese alphabets, alphabet forms that make their own set of words. And when you put all of that together on a website, you can share so much information. Whereas I feel if you’re looking at a website, in English, everything’s you have, you know, a bold typeset. To help you pinpoint certain information, you have really stylized text designs that kind of give you the feel of what maybe this article is about or what this brand is about. But looking at it, with the eyes of someone who can read and understand Japanese characters, it’s more the information that you can get with all of those various alphabets combined into one.
James Royal-Lawson
I didn’t realize at all that the information density was such a thing, because, I mean, you’re saying that this, what this three different sets of characters you’re using together is the Roman alphabet used on top of those three as well.
Rishma Hansil
No, in traditional like in the Japanese newsprint you rarely ever see the English alphabet. It’s always they use the katakana when they are writing foreign words in Japanese. So yeah, so it’s like the, it’s some some of them even sound very English. So in English, we would say hamburger. And the Japanese alphabet was a ‘hamburger’. So you can pronounce it using the Japanese phonetic?
Per Axbom
Yeah, right. Oh, wow.
Rishma Hansil
Yeah. So it’s not even in English words.
James Royal-Lawson
No. branding, of course, I guess is still right. kind of company brands.
Rishma Hansil
Yeah.
James Royal-Lawson
Right. Okay. But so when we’re looking at, if we’re looking at a Japanese website, then where some of the some of the things that maybe we would perceive as headlines, or maybe even more like sentences I guess to us. Yeah.
Rishma Hansil
Yes. And there’s something really interesting about how much information a Japanese person wants on a website, which, for me, it kind of shifted when I moved to Japan and started to realise “Okay, they want to know a lot of things upfront, the customer journey is really different. In Japan. They want you to disclose as much product information from the get go. Like, as soon as you open that gate, let me know, what am I getting into? What are the materials? Who designs this? Where does it come from.” Whereas I feel in the West were very much, you know, a visual, like, we want to see those pretty images like scroll through maybe those 3d renderings where you can rotate it, and we want that before we go into things like product reviews, and the manufacturer, stuff like that.
Per Axbom
That’s really interesting. But that also means that if there is more information density, we don’t always catch on to that. So there’s actually more space to have that information upfront as well.
Rishma Hansil
Yeah, yeah. There’s Yes, there? Well, I mean, some would argue, because when I look at a site, okay, there doesn’t need to be that much stuff going on. But at the same time, it’s what the user feels is the most helpful for them when making a purchasing decision
Per Axbom
For me, I just have to go back to that, because something that blew my mind was that there’s no bold, there’s no italics.
Rishma Hansil
Yeah.
Per Axbom
And that made me wonder about fonts, because font choice is really important in western design, and you were talking about how you can actually design the different letters in different ways. But how would that work? As you couldn’t go? Oh, do I choose a sans serif font or a serif font? Because if you had serifs? It’s not the same letter anymore?
Rishma Hansil
Yeah, well, there are different ways that you can style the Japanese letters in the same way that we might choose a different typeface, or maybe increase the size of it, rather than, like make it make it bold. But on my medium article, I use the example of the Apple website. So they do similar stylistic elements, just using the Japanese text. And the weight of the text is probably what people are looking at more so than the stylistic element. Because some of those traditional, like some of the old Japanese bars here, for example, use really traditional kind of calligraphy style writing that I’ve asked my Japanese friends and they can’t read it. It’s so old school, they don’t even know what it means. But it’s cool. And it signals to signals to the patrons that okay, this bar serves, you know, a certain type of alcohol geared towards a certain type of crowd. So in that way, I think there are similar typestyles just executed differently.
James Royal-Lawson
You mentioned the medium article that you wrote, though. And in that as well, you talked about, refer to the contrast between the simplicity of Japanese design, product design, we’ve got to, you know, clean looking things with nice colours, and very stylized and calming almost. And then when you kind of land on a Japanese website. It’s kind of like you’ve just been dumped in the middle of Tokyo, and you go, Oh, wow. Which which against feels like a sort of fascinating, you know, paradox with with my European eyes on it.
Rishma Hansil
That Yeah, that’s how I felt when I got off the plane. Because you hear about Japan as being or in the media, in movies, you see it as this very futuristic, you know, this alternate reality world where they’re robots, and everything’s very high tech. But the backdrop of that is a very traditional culture steeped in a lot of these values of like harmony, and you have like Zen Buddhism, and watching those two realities play out simultaneously, is that exact experience of going into Mooji and buying this very sleek, you know, there’s no text written on these packaging at all. It’s so clean.
But you go onto a website, and it’s every word in the universe that is presented to you the same time. But it works. I think the people that are living here in Japan, and they talk about the age group, the age demographic, like there’s a high like a large percentage of their online users are over 60. And in that way, they try not to change too much about what you what you experience online, on the web, on the apps. They try to keep that you know, as formulaic as possible so people can always find the information that they need that’s relevant to them.
James Royal-Lawson
That’s really interesting. I think a lot of us will be aware of the fact that Japan has an ageing demographic is one of those things that gets thrown out in articles and media quite often. But organisations themselves very aware and very respectful of that ageing demographic. When you’re doing design in Japan, is that something that you really are it’s an active decision active conversation about not changing too much, because you have respect for the ones who’ve been with the design a long time.
Rishma Hansil
Oh, yeah, certainly, certainly! that’s something that is on the forefront of people’s minds, because that is, that’s the user that we have to think about when designing for them. And it’s almost as though they try not to change too much too quickly. It is a very slow, very progressive way of doing design, especially online design here with a lot of their apps and websites, it’s very small changes that you see happening incrementally over time, you would, you would rarely ever see a brand totally redo their entire interface, or their entire online branding. And it being totally different. When you when you look at it, I think that’s, you know, in part of the fact that a lot of people who are using these websites go to it expecting a certain thing, in the same way with with products and the retail experience in Japan, you go into a store expecting it to work in a particular way. And when it doesn’t, there are so many other places you can turn to, for that information.
Per Axbom
That sounds actually that you have more focus on usability in Japan than my experiences in most western countries, where you do change a lot. And I do I mean, I do lots of talks about accessibility. And one part of that is the constant change of payment systems and how you buy tickets on the bus and everything. Everything is changing so fast. And so what you’re saying is that it’s actually part of the culture to not change that fast.
Rishma Hansil
Yes. Yes. And for some people, like when I first arrived, I found it a little bit frustrating. You know, I remember the first time someone asked me to use a fax machine, I was very upset. I was like, what, what? Excuse you? Like, hold on, let me let me, let me go back to the 90s. Real quick. But that’s the thing. That’s what they… like a lot. A lot of those systems are still in place, and they phase out, but it takes quite a few years before that happens. And in that time, you have the old and the new coexisting. So people are learning and adapting at adapting better, but at a slower rate, I would say. So I’ve used a lot of those kind of like online systems when I use the subway, it is so accessible. When I came to Japan, I didn’t speak any Japanese, nothing. I only had pictures and colours and my UX background to figure things out. And it worked really well. Really, really well. So that’s just a sign that usability is working.
James Royal-Lawson
I guess you it gives you space to consider maybe the details and going back to what you said about like, simplicity and some of those small details of things that when you’re rushing to do big changes. As Per has said that we seem to still a lot of the time do these massive changes, excluding maybe Amazon who’ve been one of the ones that have been very Japanese in their approach with keeping a very similar website for an awful long time. But as a designer then do you feel that you, you do get more space to breathe and to kind of Tinker, I guess or tweak the designs then have to do what kind of like 1000 wireframes? for an entire new redesign?
Rishma Hansil
Yes, yeah, I definitely think so there’s not, there’s no ever massive overhaul of something, we are not taking everything apart, and putting it back together again and making it new, it is one or two things that we look at at a time, and how we can improve that how we can make that better. And I think with that kind of laser focus on one particular function or aspect of a product or service. That’s how Japan seems to be excelling so much, you know, globally, with their innovation in tech and in AI and services.
It’s looking at what, what isn’t working so great, or what can work better. And focusing on that fixing that before jumping into the next thing, or redoing everything and then looking at what went wrong, how we can make it better like that. On another note, as well, I find that approach has done well for customer loyalty. There’s a lot of brand loyalty in Japan, people really you know, you choose a brand, whether it be anything from milk to shoes to an like a certain piece of tech, and you stick with that for the rest of your life. So Yeah, and I think that loyalty comes a lot to where the customer just feels connected and feels like they’re growing with the brand, rather than the brand growing so fast that they can’t catch up with it.
James Royal-Lawson
Right. So the fact that Yeah, because yeah, the familiarity that they can build with something that is stable. Creates a stronger attachment then something that becomes unrecognisable on a regular basis.
Rishma Hansil
Yeah. Yeah, pretty much. And with Japanese people having I think, one of the longest age groups like, I mean, I know quite a number of centenarians here. So if you are loyal to a brand, yes, I want you to be loyal for 100 years. And more.
James Royal-Lawson
Yeah. So here in Sweden we have a lot of older people as well. People live a long time in Sweden. And I’m not sure though, if we can make the same analogy between Sweden and Japan.
Per Axbom
Exactly. That’s so it’s so fascinating to hear. But it’s also because we change more here. So I mean, we can’t really test it. Because I mean, even our I mean, public sector companies, they change logos, and they rebrand and they’re totally different. And they have they have this tone of voice and it changes. So it’s much harder to be loyal, of course, then. Something I picked up on also is what I would call a sense of humour. But you didn’t call it that in your article, because I loved the frogs. So cute frogs, the frogs shaped construction signs. And it that was also so enlightening to me, because I mean, in most countries, the construction signs or even the roadblocks would be just big blobs of concrete. But what I was seeing in your article is that they were frog shaped, and green, and cute and fun to look at. To me it is like that is what I get the sense of I get all these impressions, and they make me feel good. And there’s a sense of humour there. Yeah,
Rishma Hansil
I like what you call it a sense of humour. I didn’t think about it like that. But yeah, a lot of it is really funny. It does make me chuckle. Do you use the word kawaii in Sweden? Like when you talk about things that are very, very cute. of the? Like…
James Royal-Lawson
My daughter probably would, but she’s really into Japanese culture just now. I wouldn’t.
Rishma Hansil
You wouldn’t, you wouldn’t say, “Oh, that’s so kawaii.”
James Royal-Lawson
I know I wouldn’t.
Rishma Hansil
Well, yeah, so kawaii is Japan’s word for cute, but it is a lifestyle, which I had to learn about the hard way, because I thought it was reserved for children. And I thought it was only to be used in ways that were purely aesthetic. But then you get frog construction signs, and you realise that you can be a construction worker and you can be kawaii. And it just ranges. So many different things in in Japan. But it’s more about making people feel relaxed, making something feel friendly, and inviting and familiar. And it’s used so effectively in situations where you are scared or anxious or confused, you know, doing even with 30 million people in Japan and you are on a commute and something goes wrong, that will ruin the rest of your day. But seeing little frog signs, or you know, when you go to a doctor’s office, and there are cute, friendly, soft looking creatures on the forms, or designed like little icons that are cute. It does psychologically make you make you feel calm.
James Royal-Lawson
So the thing though, I guess is that Japan has managed to retain that acceptance of playfulness and cuteness into adulthood. So the culture allows for that. So we can I guess we can’t, if we wanted to apply this in the UK, for example, then we couldn’t just suddenly start rolling out cuteness.
Per Axbom
I couldn’t you but couldn’t you I mean, I would love you to have small kittens on your health declaration forms at the doctor’s. I mean, lots of people would love that.
James Royal-Lawson
Yeah, but I think at the same time, a lot of people would be kind of putting on the old stiff British. Oh that’s not very British, now and being stereotypical, but my own country but one of my own countries. But it’s I think it’s interesting to look at these cultural aspects that are so deeply rooted in Japan. But I think we maybe would have to be careful about how you could apply them and roll them out in other cultures. Because, you know, that’s not something you can do with just releasing a new version of a website or an app or something. You’d have to work on it for decades, probably to embody that cultural aspect of it all.
Rishma Hansil
Yeah, I remember I had a conversation with my Japanese friend on a I asked if she ever watched E.T. And she said, she said no, E.T. is terrifying. I’m like, What do you mean? A lot? A lot of people think, you know, they Oh, he’s so cute. Such a cute, friendly alien. And she said to me, she was like, oh, I’ve been living in Japan for so long. My standard for cuteness is very high. And E.T. is disturbing.
Per Axbom
That’s such a great example. Wow.
James Royal-Lawson
So much about where we are on the scale.
Rishma Hansil
Yeah. So I started showing her other things. I’m like, look at this little, you know, like, look at a gremlin. Is it cute? You know? Yeah. So they have a really different scale for cuteness than the rest of the world.
James Royal-Lawson
Something I’ve, I’ve heard is the cuteness seems to last into adulthood. But with the language, there, there’s a different thing isn’t isn’t there? Isn’t the language used by children? A bit more distinct from the language used by adults? is kind of a, you know, the complexity and simplicity and things?
Rishma Hansil
Yes, yeah. and Japan has a hierarchy system, what their language so there are levels to politeness in the language. And in terms of UX, like when we have to write text for an app, we have to use the the most polite, because we’re talking to our users, our customers, they pay the bills, so we’re not going to refer to them informally. It’s just that
James Royal-Lawson
you’re building respect, because you have to show respect for your customer.
Rishma Hansil
Exactly, yes. And there’s even something as well, when you take the bus, there’s a tiny little bus stop bell that you ring. And the amount of texts they squeeze into that tiny bus stop bell is, is fantastic. Because it’s the polite form of like, Please, dear customer, if you press this bell, the bus will stop for you. Thank you for riding with us. You know, whereas in other countries that just says stop. It’s just S T O P, stop.
Per Axbom
So lovely, though. I mean, it makes you think of all these things that we take for granted and you realise it’s so rude. We are being so rude to each other every day. While they are being polite.
Rishma Hansil
Yeah, one of my Japanese teachers made the comment. She was like, I apologise for something she’s like, No, no, no, you are disrespectful by nature. Because it’s just like in English. I don’t have… I wouldn’t know. You know? Like, it’s just, it’s just your nature. There’s no, there’s Thank you. There’s Thank you very much. And there’s Oh, thank you very, very much. But you know.
Per Axbom
That’s it.
Rishma Hansil
Yeah.
Per Axbom
But okay, so I mean, there’s bound to be when we talk about different cultures, you always have to be careful. And I think I mean, you were touching upon it, you were being prejudiced about your own country, James. But I think when I started out in web design, I got all these went to all these seminars where people were talking about colours, and what colours meant in different countries. And some were saying, well, in Asia, white means death. And so don’t use a lot of white. And I always thought that was really stupid, because I mean, what so you have a white piece of paper, and you write on that, and you give it to someone about means death? No, it doesn’t. So I mean, the the advice being given, of course, was really weird and strange back then. So but what types of myths Have you come across that just aren’t true? for Japan?
Rishma Hansil
About about design? Or about…
Per Axbom
Yeah,can be designed can be anything really, but myths are prejudiced, or things that you really strike you as an Eve?
Rishma Hansil
I think, probably it has to do a lot with that kawaii aspect of things. I think for me, I definitely underestimated how powerful a tool it was. So when I saw things that were kawaii, and cute in Japanese design, I really thought that that was only for a certain subset of the population. I didn’t realise what a powerful emotional design tool that was. And I didn’t realise that you can roll out cuteness across the board, you know, from the private sector, to, you know, government institutions, and how key it was in helping people relate to certain sets of information.
A Japan has a lot of earthquakes, as you know. And they’re yet only yesterday was the anniversary of the massive 2011 earthquake. And when I got my evacuation, manual, and guides, all of those things could be potentially very, very terrifying for someone who comes from a country where I don’t have to worry about major earthquakes, but the way in which all of that information was presented was using those colours and patterns and images and graphics and cartoons and illustrations and anime styled, you know, cover your head, put on your helmet, you’ll be okay. And I thought for a moment, yeah, I can do this. I’ll be okay. You know. And now I’ve come to just grow, to love how that can be such a powerful tool.
Per Axbom
So if you’re a designer being dropped into Japan, where do you start? What’s your last piece of advice for anyone? What to learn more about,
Rishma Hansil
I would start by spending at least you know, your first week in Japan observing, sit on the train, sitting in a restaurant and just watch Japan. Tokyo especially is a playground for UX designers, you can observe you can play with different machinery and technology, and enjoy and watch how people of all ages interact with products down to you know, buying things in the supermarket, opening packages at convenience stores. Yeah, just be an observer. And I think you learn a lot that way. I’m
James Royal-Lawson
really looking forward to going.
Per Axbom
Me as well.
James Royal-Lawson
Yeah. Hopefully, it’ll happen soon, when things open up again. And that was to travel, then I’ll be looking forward to observing, taking in all the cuteness and complexity and fascination of Tokyo and Japan.
Rishma Hansil
If I’m here, give me a call. I’ll give you a grand tour of the city.
Per Axbom
Thank you. Thank you so much for joining us Rishma.
Rishma Hansil
Thank you for having me.
[Music]
James Royal-Lawson
So one thing there is I’ve just learned a whole load of words beginning with care. Was it kanji? cutter Karna. I don’t know if I’m saying things properly, or not real correct. And then can why I… can… .
Per Axbom
Kawaii?
James Royal-Lawson
Exactly the yeah, the the culture of humanists, I did check with my young daughter. And she wouldn’t say that word to describe something as cute. She knows exactly what it is on she recognises things about it, but she doesn’t use the word as a thing to describe cuteness. Right? That does that. And then something we didn’t mention, but we talked about was Kaizen. So the culture of continuous improvement. And there’s been books written about this over the years, going back to the 70s, I think, and we talked about it in with like, Toyota, the example of where they, they have the production line, and they’re encouraged to stop the production line, if they notice something that can be improved or something’s wrong. And then they mix more up. So Kaizen is that thing of continuous improvement and making small incremental changes, rather than wholesale? Complete changes.
Per Axbom
Exactly. We talked a bit about this when Krishna said that changes, they take years, and they’re there are no massive overhauls, it’s always the small changes that take precedence.
James Royal-Lawson
And that’s then Kaizen and that culture of continuous improvement, small improvements over time. You know, we try and adopt that, you know, reading these books, and we kind of, you know, say we’re going to try doing this. But it’s not just a case of we’re adding a Kaizen layer on top of a culture that’s not properly prepared to take it on.
Per Axbom
Isn’t that really interesting that we didn’t actually use the word during the interview, because the using the word is part of Western culture in describing what it is we do. Whereas in Japan, it’s already embedded in how they work. So they don’t have to mention it. It’s just the way things are, which means that we’re exactly that, what you’re saying is, we’re trying to force something that isn’t part of our culture onto something that then won’t work as we anticipated, because people just don’t think that way.
James Royal-Lawson
Yeah, or it’s going to take a lot longer to build that culture of continuous improvement, then maybe a lot of these change management programmes and drives inside organisations to make us work like that, Then, you know, we’re prepared to admit,
Per Axbom
right, so now I’m thinking what are we learning here really, when we’re talking to Rishma is that countries are different, and cultures are different. Of course, there are differences within countries, we have to acknowledge that as well. So it’s not we’re not saying that everyone in all countries have a specific culture. But it doesn’t mean we can adopt everything just off the bat. It does mean we can be inspired by things that others do. And also that we need to recognise that when we introduce things in other countries, we need to be really respectful and understanding and really, we would preferably should listen first before introducing something in another culture.
James Royal-Lawson
That’s and this is a really, really interesting aspect. If we think about how many times over the years like I’ve been involved in rollouts of like, you know, international websites, and so on in a whole series of country sites for, like a Swedish brand or Swedish, international organisation. And the way we do that is you have a design, often designed here in Sweden, and then you translate it, then it gets translated into all these different regional markets. It doesn’t get redesigned, it doesn’t get specifically designed for a particular market in a detailed way. At best it’s just the words that have changed. And I mean, we’ve talked about culture and that aspect a few times before over the years, and how it’s better to allow local organisations drive these kinds of things, because they know the local market best. Which is my fits into this about culture. But it’s still I think, a lot of time just down to translating the words.
Per Axbom
I mean, one simple example of that I come across so many times, of course, is that a lot of the websites I’ve worked with have also been translated to Finnish. And the Finnish language has really long words, which means that a lot of the things that are supposed to fit in one button takes several rows on that button, and so it visually doesn’t appear the same. But also just thinking that we can just translate the words, and that will come across in the same way in another country. I think we’re fooling ourselves all the time. Because that’s, that’s not how language works. And I think that’s what really the types of insights we got from Rishma now is that language can be so different that even their letters and writing can be so different than what they convey.
James Royal-Lawson
Yeah, exactly. So that thing when you think about. Lets take, Twitter, it’s an American product based on American cultural values and cultural perspectives, which has become global. It takes no prisoners, when it comes to, you know, it makes no adaptations for localities, really, it allows you to translate tweets. But again, we’re back to that brutal just, this is a word, that’s another word which matches it, which doesn’t. So if we take a Richmas example of the bus at the bus stop button that says stop, you take the word stop in a tweet. How do you translate that to its true meaning without the context and the, the understanding of the culture lies behind the words,
Per Axbom
And some words will have so much meaning because of events that have occurred that are part of history in that particular country. So just translating the word and not actually understanding that the word can itself contains so many connotations, that itself can be distressing or disrespectful, actually,
James Royal-Lawson
And then the cultural aspect of, of needing of information density, like we mentioned, that’s something you can’t just translate you’ve got translate information density from one country to another, he has to be designed as be catered for. So we’re brutally kind of like steamrolling our, you know, American English best designs across the entire world, we’re not really taking that time or been prepared to take on the initial cost of understanding the impact in these other cultures and what you can do to make it work better.
Per Axbom
Yeah. But it actually does make me think a lot about how cultures are different within countries as well, when we were talking about that form, and we were joking about how we could add kittens onto a form. kawaii style. We’re saying that, well, in some countries, that won’t work. Well, for some people, in those countries, it will work. But actually, then we are saying that we’re always steamrolling over someone because we’re deciding that this works for the most amount of people in this particular culture or country. So we’re always putting aside someone that might have appreciated something that’s really funny or cute, because it won’t work for everyone.
James Royal-Lawson
Absolutely fascinating. Culture is never an uninteresting subject to dive into.
Per Axbom
Very true. I know you picked up an episode for listening to next.
James Royal-Lawson
Yeah, it’s a really, really recent one, Episode 255, which was a chat with Margo Blumstein about trustworthy and brand voice and and how you’d go about contemplating thinking about how your brand actually should communicate or should communicate with your customers and services and so on. And it felt even though it’s recent, it felt really relevant to go back and listen to that again. Now after we’ve discussed and thought about these cultural aspects and how it differs so much. How would you deal with that then, from a brand perspective.
Per Axbom
That’s a really good one. Yeah, like that. Show Notes and a full transcript can be found on uxpodcast.com if you can’t get to them directly from wherever you are listening
James Royal-Lawson
And quick follow, subscribe add us or whatever you need to press or do in your culture or language or whatever it is on the internet, if you aren’t already doing so, and join us again for Episode 260.
Per Axbom
And if you’d like to contribute to funding UX podcast, then visit uxpodcast.com/support. Remember to keep moving.
James Royal-Lawson
See you on the other side.
[Music]
Why did the donut visit the dentist?
Per Axbom
I don’t know James, why did the donut visit the dentist
James Royal-Lawson
to get a new filling…
This is a transcript of a conversation between James Royal-Lawson, Per Axbom and Rishma Hansil recorded in March 2021 and published as episode 259 of UX Podcast.