Lost in translation

A transcript of Episode 214 of UX Podcast. James Royal-Lawson and Per Axbom discuss two articles they’ve recently read – a research paper about a large scale accessment of dark patterns used on shopping websites, and the story of a health platform roll-out in Denmark.

This transcript has been machine generated.

Transcript

James Royal-Lawson
Before we start, we just wanted to say up front, thank you for listening. If this episode, or us podcast in general gives you joy, then please visit uX podcast.com slash support. And say thank you by giving us a one off donation, or a repeating donation from just a few dollars a month, to hundreds of Corona.

Per Axbom
And by funding UX podcast together with James and myself, we can hopefully bring you eight more years of an independently curated UX podcast. Thank you for being wonderful

James Royal-Lawson
You’re listening to you x podcast coming to you from Stockholm, Sweden, we are your hosts, James Royal-Lawson,

Per Axbom
and Per Axbom,

James Royal-Lawson
helping the UX community explore ideas and share knowledge since 2011, with listeners in 186 countries, from Ghana to Japan.

Per Axbom
And today we have for you a link show. which essentially means if you haven’t heard one before that we choose to links, and used to be a lot more Israel. But we talked we talked so much about these links, so that we had to shorten it down to two, two links that we discuss that we found on our digital travels, James.

James Royal-Lawson
Notice I’m the one that normally does this kind of little spiel.

Per Axbom
And the first one that we’re going to be talking about is dark patterns at scale findings from a crawl of 11,000 Shopping websites. It’s a new study coming out of Princeton University and University of Chicago.

James Royal-Lawson
And the second article we’ll be discussing today is lost in translation. Epic goes to Denmark, by Arthur Alan on political about an epic failure in the procurement of a digital health platform.

[Music]

James Royal-Lawson
First article, dark patterns at scale findings from a crawl about 11,000 Shopping websites. Now, this is an article and a research paper produced by a group of seven researchers. And I’m not going to read up all the names sorry, but there’s a lot of names. But there’s seven researchers from Princeton University and Chicago University. And I think this was this in this study is super interesting. I love it. Now, what the group did, they analysed the 11,000 most popular shopping websites. And as far as I’m aware, it’s the first time anyone’s done an automated analysis of patterns at scale. And 11,000 is it is it a lot.

Per Axbom
And by popular, they mean the most visited websites.

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah. And this is where I think it’s important for us to look a little bit more by them look a bit about what they mean by 11,000 most popular shopping websites, because that’s one of those headline things. But it’s a site. It’s a research paper. So there’s got to be a proper definition behind this. Now, what they did do is they took the top websites from Alexa, Alexa, they were the website with all the data about our website, they took the top 361,000 websites.

And out of that sample, they chose 500 at random and went through those manually and classified them as shopping website, not shopping website. Right? That then while that sample of 500, which they classified, they fed that back in and use machine learning to reclassify all the other sites in the 360,000 61,000 sample that gave them a sample size sample set of 46,000 websites that were deemed to be shopping worldwide.

Per Axbom
Yeah.

James Royal-Lawson
Now, they wanted just English speaking sites, which if you wanted to criticise this analysis, it is this particular moment in their in their sample size, sample creation. But they used the and went through the 46,000 and used language analysis to filter out just the English ones. Which they were going to use for the study.

Per Axbom
Yeah. Because I mean, they’re doing language analysis they’re doing,

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah

Per Axbom
It would be immensely difficult for them to do it in every language.

James Royal-Lawson
Exactly. They’re, they’re actually limiting their research, this paper does limit itself to the text, the words that are used, and how that’s used in dark patterns, not visual things such as colour, or imagery and so on. So yeah, so the language is key. And it would be a much more complicated study, if they started to have to, to do translations are kind of mapping of phrases and so on between various languages and cultures to get the information. I understand why they’re doing it. And it’s still an absolutely excellent study. I’m not, I’m not kind of dismissing it because of that. I’m just highlighting that there is, is a limitation is that it’s English.

Per Axbom
I’m thinking of this as a start. I mean, it’s a fantastic thing to do. And there’s so much interesting stuff in this paper, but it’s a start, and it gives a lot of other people something to build.

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah. And they so they can use you can use their system and what they’ve done to do other cultures or other language sets,

Per Axbom
because they put everything on GitHub.

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah. So. So anyway, from that, from the 19,000, English shopping sites, top shopping sites, they successfully managed to crawl the shopping product page and the checkout of 11,000 of them. So when they say the top 11,000 websites, it’s actually not it’s a it’s it’s the top 11,000 English language shopping, what sites worldwide that they managed to successfully crawl.

Per Axbom
Yeah. could identify the shopping cart and the checkout page.

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah, I think the main over areas, possible areas in the crawling process, but ultimately, that’s what you’re talking about. So it’s but it’s a it’s a massive sample set anyway, so he has a lot of really interesting things. Now also, equally interesting, is what they’ve done is create a dark pattern taxonomy, which defines a characterised as the the, the problematic nature of each dark pattern, right? By classifying them on how they influence users. So they have a symmetric, covert, deceptive, hide information restrictive, they were that are mentioned in the taxonomy. When they run the analysis on the 11,000 sites, they found 15 different types of patterns across seven categories. On those seven categories are sneaking, urgency, misdirection, social proof, scarcity, obstruction, and forced action.

Per Axbom
And for me, this is one of the big, big values of this study is actually that categorization of these different patterns. Because to address something, we need a better language to talk about it. And that is what they are providing here. They’re providing a really good language, we’re talking about what different types of dark patterns are out there and being used.

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah. And also, in addition to the categorization, under the dimensions, the taxonomy, and they also highlight which cognitive bias, if any, is associated with that category of dark pattern. Yeah. So for example, for urgency, which is one of the categories. The cognitive bias associated with that is scarcity bias. Yeah. And some of them don’t have any biases attached. But some of them are multiple. Now from an from an economics perspective, I love puns. I think it’s a fascinating – I don’t love them as in I want you to use them more

Per Axbom
You should see James’s face now. It’s like is this evil genius! Oh, my God I love these dark patterns.

James Royal-Lawson
I love I love the concept of dark patterns. I love how it’s, it’s,

Per Axbom
I rarely see you this excited

James Royal-Lawson
when design and and economics meet, I do love it. Because basically, dark patterns are results in the failure of market forces, information, insufficient insufficient information has been available or revealed to one party in the transaction, resulting in a distortion. And that distortion is shifting the price equilibrium. Because you can’t understand the true value of what you’re buying, because you’ve been manipulated, it’s been hidden from you paying more, you pay more than you expect, for something you didn’t know you’re buying. So there’s a lot of distortion going on this adult patterns are a form of market distortion, and which is perfectly, you know, in economic theory, this is perfectly, you know, explained and it’s kind of something that’s not a surprise, it’s just interesting to see it. And in the wild at such scale. And, and to see what happens when you do distort the market through. Through through and through the availability of information and and, and the way in which is presented to to buyers to restrict their understanding and restrict their ability to value what their, or the transaction they’re getting in to.

Per Axbom
it’s interesting to me because that all these cases, it could also be the case that the provider of the service, ie the seller, doesn’t actually themselves, even though what’s going on because what they found here was that they’re using also third party software,

James Royal-Lawson
and plugins and tools.

Per Axbom
Yeah, to to welcome provide to websites. And some of those third party tools are the ones who implement the dark patterns, which means that some of the sellers could actually also be unaware of what’s going on.

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah, well, actually, it’s not even always just the the websites, some of these are tools that you use for features, you know, for add ons and sound like it could be a WordPress plugin or something. Okay, it’s a top site. So maybe there’s some more software that collects data. Yeah, it could be a Yeah, it could be something that’s, that’s creating recommended list or including social proof. There are other tools that you add to do these things. And you’re right, so I want to go back to that point.

The fact is, is a really important point comes from the study. But the the, the kind of big figure, I guess, at the end of the study was they found at least least one dark pattern on 11.2%. of the 11,000 websites in their their sample. And what they found us they don’t actually I didn’t see the number. But they said that in many cases out of that 11.2%. So what’s up, but 1200 101,200 websites, many cases, the dark patterns were enabled by these third party tools that you’re you’re you’re talking about. Which I think gets into that question. How we’ve been, we see many industrial the years, where is this debate and discussion about do you, do you regulate or ban the the use of something? Or do you regulate or ban the production of something?

So at the moment, we’ve got the situation where we do have laws and regulations, you know, consumer protection and so on. Yeah, that prohibits certain patterns. But we have no regulation. And I think the report highlights this, that though, there is very limited regulation that prevents the creation sale of tools that enable dark patterns.

Per Axbom
Oh, I hate it when you get into the nitty gritty on there. And just these wordings of different regulations that you can get you find loopholes around it.

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah. So it’s a kind of a blame game. But the moment that like legislation prevents companies who are selling the actual websites, sell the websites, provide products, those can’t employ certain patterns that you’ve got to actively opt in, you can’t afford to opt out from like marketing and so on. Yeah. Now, in the US, you anyway. But there’s nothing stopping those companies buying services, that enable kind of automatic opt in, and so on. So the the onus becomes on them to make sure they’ve disabled it.

Per Axbom
So as long as there’s a middleman, you’re sort of home free. That’s it sounds crazy.

James Royal-Lawson
But yeah, the people, if you’re the ones creating these tools, you’re you’re free. Yeah. It’s the ones that are doing it. Yeah. And I think I mean, maybe this is a bit of a relevant example, but I’m we have a century for the debate about do you outlaw prostitution? Or do you outlaw the idea of those services? It’s a similar ish, kind of, you know, argument, I guess. who’s who’s who’s the one who is trying to protect and and who’s the root? Cause? What is the best way of stopping it? Do you stop? You stop people from employing on the websites? Are you stop the people from..

Per Axbom
…providing the service?

James Royal-Lawson
Yes.

Per Axbom
Yeah.

James Royal-Lawson
It’s. So there’s so many fascinating aspects of this. It’s fascinating from an economics perspective. It’s fascinating from a design perspective. And it’s fascinating from a regulation perspective.

Per Axbom
And also, I mean, you could also argue that maybe you would have expected there to be more dark patterns or more websites and a higher percentage of websites. But I’d pencil that down to there are limitations to the study, like you’ve mentioned some, but the it doesn’t do any visual, dark patterns. Also, they’ve pinpointed a couple of types of pages. So not all types of pages on websites have been included. And sometimes the the, the automated tool actually has not been able to crawl certain pages.

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah, I know, some of the examples of things that aren’t covered. Or, for example, they didn’t take into account text size. Right. So if you’ve got the classic thing with a giant button, in a certain colour with big text, and then next to it is tiny text, local contrast. Great, Andre? Yeah, yeah, then that’s not gonna be covered in this.

Yeah. And also,

Per Axbom
and I would say that that’s quite a common one

James Royal-Lawson
without the empirical evidence to back this up. But yeah, we know these exist. And also we know that, in some, some cultures are, I would say more roofless. But there’s there’s a, there’s maybe I’m more of an accepted culture with trickery. It’s not equal worldwide. We’ve got legislation that’s not equal worldwide. So

Per Axbom
specifically, call it deception in the study. Yeah, like that.

James Royal-Lawson
So I think some, in some cultures, then deception is going to be more accepted, deployed, less regulated. Now we just see the difference between us and an EU. Just there. There’s a big difference in what’s allowed.

Per Axbom
And I do mention a lot of that. I mean, in the EU, some of these are actually breaking the law.

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah. And I have very little limited knowledge about equivalent legislation in Japan. Exactly. Yeah. I’m in two cultures that are very different to the ones I live in and work in. And I have no idea actually.

Per Axbom
But for me, I mean, this is the type of study that the world needs right now. We need more of these studies, to actually make more people aware, spark the discussions to talk about what systems do we need to put in place to make sure that customers of companies and organisations aren’t in the dark about what’s going on? And how can we protect their interests? And how can we make sure they’re not harmed at the expense of companies making more and more and more money,

James Royal-Lawson
even though you do say that they call this deception in some places, and I think the report is, is light on prescription is light on kind of laying blame or trying to say, really, that this is the impact. And this is what it means to people, they they point out, they’re holding devices in use. But they don’t go as far as saying what this means in terms of of harm?

Per Axbom
No, but they encourage others to do it.

James Royal-Lawson
Absolutely. So I think I like I actually do like the fact that this report focusing on the data, and which allow was possibly people to do a little bit what we’re doing now, provide some commentary. Yeah. And maybe some more impact. You mean, you could potentially even do medical studies based on kind of people who’ve been subjected to these kind of sites? You know, how did they? How did they feel? does it impact on their lives in different ways? You know, we all know you get a buzz from buying stuff online. How was that buzz? When you found that you’ve had a $5? Item pushed into your basket? We are you know about it? And what does that mean? What impact does it have in your, in your on your life? Do you have $5, less than to buy food, there’s, there’s so much more that you could look into on so many different angles.

Per Axbom
And this is opening the pathway to do that. And so I think even if we, I mean, we’ve touched on the limitations, they are very open about the limitations. I mean, it’s University study, it’s research, it’s done very well. And they’re explaining very well how to make use of the tool they build, what else you could find out about it as well.

James Royal-Lawson
So get out there and do some papers for us

[Music]

Per Axbom
So lost in translation, epic goes to Denmark, and epic. In this scenario. And this article, is an American software platform intended to make it easier for doctors and healthcare systems to work, share patient information and keep tabs on costs. So healthcare providers use the systems to store patient data and share it with others. And this is interesting, because you have an American healthcare system that was implemented in Denmark. And what you need to know about healthcare systems in America versus Denmark is that they’re vastly different.

James Royal-Lawson
So you kind of you presume that, I mean, it’s like, you know, it’s you’re taking care of patients. I mean, how different could it be?

Per Axbom
That’s very true. And you’d even assume that you sort of have the same diagnosis, and the same words for different illnesses. But of course, they are different languages. Hence, the title lost in translation. I mean, in the US, Denmark, like Sweden, has a socialised health medicine. So that means really, a lot of the stuff is free.

James Royal-Lawson
Well, it means you don’t pay via insurance, you pay via your taxes.

Per Axbom
Yes, exactly.

James Royal-Lawson
The article, interesting figure, I think it was 19% of GDP in America goes on health care, by an insurance based system, whereas I think it was 10% of GDP in Denmark goes on health care by the tax system.

Per Axbom
Interesting. Yes. So for example, one major difference and this software, it wouldn’t be that there’s a lot of focus on building in the American system, whereas that’s not as necessary in Denmark,

James Royal-Lawson
or rather it’s not the it’s not the goal of the system in Denmark. Yeah, I think that was also that was a I’m butting into your introduction there Per. But that was the one that’s kind of like, Oh, my word, like, the fundamental goal of the system in America is to make building more efficient, because the system that because the health care system isn’t actually a health care system. It’s a it’s a profit based system for any money, not what it is. And then, whereas in Denmark, the goal of the system is to support patient care. Not to make billing more efficient, because billing doesn’t, you know, Bill,

Per Axbom
it doesn’t factor in in the same.

James Royal-Lawson
So the fundamental goes when you’re, when you’re doing the kind of like, you know, the effect mapping at the start of your projects can say, okay, we need a system. Why, what’s the goal of our system, though, two fundamentally different pillars you’re building these systems on?

Per Axbom
Yeah, speaking of effect mapping, none of that work was being done here. And that is, of course, the interesting thing with this article and realising This is a huge, huge system was implemented in two regions and Denmark. But there was basically no research going on no talking to the actual working within the hospitals within the healthcare systems in Denmark. Exactly. But it was a system epic is quite well known. It’s been implemented in lots of places in the US. And it’s been very successful. So it seems like you said in the beginning, it seems like when we could we need a health care system. Let’s buy that one. Clearly works. It clearly works, because it’s been implemented successfully, many places.

James Royal-Lawson
So thinking it will be a shortcut to success.

Per Axbom
And one very, very simple thing that did not have was translation, of course, to Danish. Which would seem an obvious thing, I’m pretty sure that they promised Yes, once we deliver, will deliver it in Danish seems either from a cost perspective or a timeframe perspective. What they ended up doing was basically using Google translate from English to Danish.

James Royal-Lawson
You see now, I’ve been involved in one of those situations, it’s dog shit.

Per Axbom
I mean, it doesn’t work.

James Royal-Lawson
No, it doesn’t work. We know because we’re in a, we’re in a non-English speaking country. Go on, why didn’t it work?

Per Axbom
Well, one example is C section, which is

James Royal-Lawson
a cesearian – when you’re pregnant, you don’t deliver birth naturally have an operation.

Per Axbom
It’s an emergency birth procedure.

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah.

Per Axbom
And the Danish system, it was translated and referred to as an executive suite. As in the C suite. And of course, in this people will understand as well, the word right, in English to left and right, left and right, the word right can meet both the opposite the left, but also the correct one. So in their amputation advice in the system, they they are what what leg was supposed to be amputated. When it was in the system, you had to check a box that said either the left leg or the correct leg.

James Royal-Lawson
Which is just I mean, it’s just insanely wrong. This is this is the this is the problem that I’ve seen this and been part of when you’ve done the quick, cheap, dirty option using Google Translate you you strip the translation of its context. And, and you can end up with or I mean, even even if you use professional translators, if you strip them of the context, they don’t know how it’s going to be used, so they can’t choose. And this is a real problem with like Swedish, we’ve got a lot less words in Swedish than we have in English. I mean, I think it’s something ridiculous like this. I mean, it’s multiple, it’s five times as many words as mean in English, and there isn’t Swedish. It’s, it’s, it’s crazy. So when you’ve got seven words to choose from in English, I mean, roughly the same thing, just little nuances different way of wanting switch. Yeah. But the other way around and gets really complicated, you know, which are the English words do you choose when you have that one?

Per Axbom
At least we have 50 words for snow.

James Royal-Lawson
We do.

Per Axbom
So, of course, I mean, people like ourselves, there are people working on this project with the implementation of the system. We’re realising This is not working, this is not going to work. So they tried to delay it. And they got the answer. No, we we test it as we go. We just implement it, we go live. There were no pilots, there were no tests. And this is

James Royal-Lawson
hold on hold on, you just said now, this is a health care system that healthcare professionals use for journaling, and prescribing treatment and medicine to people who are ill. Yeah. And then launching the hot launching a system with no testing and no pilots, puts us just absolutely

Per Axbom
bins. It’s a huge, huge national wide product project. It’s only implemented in two regions, mind you, but they’re sharing data from those systems, of course, and you can fall ill wherever wherever you’re travelling. So I mean, everybody’s affected, of course, by this.

James Royal-Lawson
I mean, did that did the people know that? A presume that the patients potential patients to have no, no idea they were going to be guinea pigs in that way?

Per Axbom
Of course not. I mean, the nurses didn’t know they were going to be guinea pigs. They’re playing they came, they came to work, like on a Monday, and the whole IT system was changed. And they couldn’t they couldn’t document the work. They couldn’t understand what’s going on. So live in real life, they were being exposed to a system that they had not seen before. and they’re supposed to the caring for

James Royal-Lawson
But that must must have crushed them.

Per Axbom
Yes. I mean, I could not imagine what that would mean, and unemployment like that, when they’re already very stressed, easy to burn out,

James Royal-Lawson
and people who are caring and impassioned, a huge way of empathy, which is why they do their job they do. You’ve been dumped and tested on party system on them. And people are suffering, because they can’t control the system.

Per Axbom
And they can’t help the patient that they’re trying to help and they can’t get the medicine out that they need to get for the patient. I mean, it’s just insane. Hence the way we call it the epic failure. Epic is a weird name for it. I mean, so this is me, this is a classic textbook example of everything that could go wrong really did. And there is also interestingly enough, some examples of alternative systems in Denmark. There’s one that’s been been used since since 2002, called systematic. And in another region in another region, quite widespread. It’s had its problems, the article says, but your user satisfaction is high, because physicians are deeply involved in building it. I mean, it’s, it’s it’s a

James Royal-Lawson
there’s your clue.

Per Axbom
This would be a fantastic use case at a UX conference. This is how you not don’t do I mean, it’s just insane. But this is what I really loved about what it said as to why some regions implemented this and not others. So why systematic is being developed in western Denmark? Okay, so different regions compete with each other. And I can attest to this. It’s the Sweden different regions compete with each other with different tools. So they buy different tools, they procure different

James Royal-Lawson
And the other regions copy the other regions,

Per Axbom
right

James Royal-Lawson
That go first,

Per Axbom
but they would never have picked the systematic tool. In other words, some cynics say I mean, this is not different, simply because it was created in western Denmark. So them being in conflict with it with each other. So they want to do it better. They want to play the trump card. So

James Royal-Lawson
So the example here would be Stockholm wouldn’t implement the system that Gothenburg had.

Per Axbom
So actually, in Gothenburg and Malmö have implemented American systems quite recently, it’s it’s. Things are happening there as well. Yeah. So I mean, efficiently, obviously very much down. At a mid 2018 report, this has been going on for a while, but mind you, I mean, we’ve been reading about it now. But people haven’t been talking about it widely across the world.

James Royal-Lawson
Because what is it, four years now, so it’s three, four years, it’s been going on.

Per Axbom
So in an area where epic was implemented 57% of their heart, patients had to wait more than 30 days take 30 days for appointments, in other areas, 4% 4% versus 57% in an epic area. I mean, you can just look at the numbers. I mean, that’s what’s so wonderful. But as you can see the numbers, fully 60% expressed deep dissatisfaction with the epic system among the decision decision. So yes, just don’t do it like this there. I mean, you could go through a UX project model. And see, check off this check off, this didn’t check off anything, they just threw it out there. But it also is a testament to what some people like to call an agile way of working, where they actually put stuff out there in front of people and see if it works.

James Royal-Lawson
I see there’s a quote here, that the, the the authorities of the region followed what they described as epic strike G, throw it all out there, fix the problems later, build the road while you’re travelling down it. Which when you’re talking about a system that’s, you know, for a region of Denmark, with 18 hospitals and 2.8 million people, as hell of a scary strategy,

Per Axbom
move fast and break things. That’s essentially what it’s saying, when we move us great people. Yeah. And I mean, that’s an interesting thing about that is that I believe that that is how a lot of people interpret the way things move in an agile world. Whereas the other system, I think, was really good example of systematic is also moving fast, but they’re moving fast with pilots and tests, and co creation. So they’re not putting things live, until they’re very confident that people understand it. They have they have the correct education, because this was also a part of it. Of course, people were not educated in the new system, they had to learn as they go along.

James Royal-Lawson
I mean, this erm, at the very end of this article, they talked about the passing of the it was the health ministries digital director says, you know, at one point, I thought, This isn’t right for us. And then as epic is too big to fail. And this, they spent such a huge amount of money. And this is one of the things we’ve seen with when you use good money chasing bad that the things get so big, you can’t you can’t afford to replace them. Yeah. And then you just have to live to so in that case, you do have to fix it as you go along. Because you’ve invested so much. What you on the competence was we know the complexity of these big systems and big projects, there’s some time and time again, we see we hear these failure storeys within the police system here in Sweden, which massive failure we’ve had, we’ve had similar storeys with Trump shared with us about medical systems, which have been kind of pushed as and don’t really work. And, and similar to the Danish experience not working.

Per Axbom
But you also have the example of someone was actually pulling the emergency corridor saying we need to stop, we can’t do this, but they went ahead anyway. So there’s that culture as well of understanding when you need to stop because people smart people are saying, there’s going to be trouble, in trouble at this scale is a huge problem. But I also can’t help thinking, if you fail this big, then it will be a long time before you fail this big again. Because now everybody has a project to point to and say, we don’t want a repeat of that.

James Royal-Lawson
Oh, but the thing is, what I what are we worried about here is of course complexity at scale. That, you know, these systems of this size, there are so many integrations. There’s so many use cases. So many nuances that the you can’t implement a system, I think I use a you’ve got to you’ve got to work tightly closely and continuously with specific groups of people to make sure all the little bits are working. You can’t just have one team working at a national level or whatever. And and implementing them healthcare system. There you go. We bought off a shelf over there. We’ve just changed a few names. We think it’ll work. No.

Per Axbom
But I mean, just just thinking about that, just thinking about that this could happen. I mean, with our experience, it just seems so mindless. It’s just impressive almost, that it can go this far and be implemented at such a large scale without anyone taking the responsibility of actually just pausing it and making sure that are we doing okay? It’s just a way of hurting people that’s on a scale that’s just unfathomable.

[Music]

Per Axbom
So thank you for spending time with us today. And as a always links notes from this episode can be found on uxpodcast.com.

James Royal-Lawson
And some recommended listening for you after this is hundred, well I’ve got two for you here. One of them, is of course is Episode 150 which is dark patterns with Harry Brignull

Per Axbom
oh and Harry is also part of the report the research report.

James Royal-Lawson
Well, he can’t not be he’s the guy that coined the phrase

Per Axbom
Exactly.

James Royal-Lawson
And Episode 145 complexity with Jonas Söderström. Where we talk about just this aspect of of large systems and the the issues of integration, and the complexity that is created when you have multiple systems that need to be integrated,

Per Axbom
Remember to keep moving.

James Royal-Lawson
See you on the other side.

[Music]

Per Axbom
At what time of day do web designers play hide and seek

James Royal-Lawson
I don’t know, at what time of day do web designers play hide and seek?

Per Axbom
at 404.


This is a transcript of a conversation between James Royal-Lawson and Per Axbom recorded in June 2019 and published as Episode 214 of UX Podcast. 

This transcript has been machine generated.