A transcript of Episode 265 of UX Podcast. James Royal-Lawson and Per Axbom are joined by Whitney Hass to discuss how you go about designing yourself? How do you give yourself permission to do your best work? And humanising UX – seeing your “users” and the people you work with as human beings..
This transcript has been machine generated and checked by Hannah Sawbridge.
Transcript
Computer voice
UX podcast, Episode 265
James Royal-Lawson
You’re listening to us podcast coming to you from Stockholm, Sweden.
Per Axbom
helping the UX community explore ideas and share knowledge since 2011.
James Royal-Lawson
We are your hosts, James Royal-Lawson.
Per Axbom
And Per Axbom.
James Royal-Lawson
with listeners in 199 countries and territories around the world from Venezuela to Kuwait. From time to time, we bring you a repeat show. This is an episode from our extensive back catalogue resurfacing, some of the ideas and thoughts from the past, that we believe are still relevant, and well worth revisiting.
Per Axbom
And today, we are bringing you our conversation with Whitney Hess from the summer of 2015. And during her visit to Sweden, we talked to Whitney about her journey from producer of wireframes to coaching UXers.
James Royal-Lawson
And this interview, I know, at least for you Per is quite a it’s a quite pivotal moment in your UX career.
Per Axbom
It really is because that same autumn of 2015, I signed up to learn coaching, I attended a coaching course for six months. Because I’d been entertaining that idea for a while. And this really, I think pushed me over and made me do it.
James Royal-Lawson
And on top of that we do actually, the gang of people we met up with during that time we spent with Whitney, Frederdick her chef partner, we still actually do meet up and chat quite regularly.
Per Axbom
Yes.
James Royal-Lawson
So I’m really looking forward to the chance that next time Whitney does have the chance to come across and see us again in Sweden.
Per Axbom
Definitely.
[Music]
Per Axbom
You tweeted us on Sunday, and we’re sitting here it’s Tuesday. And we’re sitting down in James’s studio.
James Royal-Lawson
Its’ our first West Coast visitor to the actual studio. Yeah, we don’t want to do these things over Skype.
Per Axbom
We had no idea you were in Sweden, which was fun. So why are you in Sweden?
Whitney Hess
Well, first of all, thank you for even having me. I’m so excited to be here. And I’m so glad it worked out like it like this, once again, the power of Twitter. So I didn’t expect to be in Stockholm. I was originally just coming to Sweden to visit my boyfriend, Frederick’s mom for her 70th birthday. And they have a home about six hours north.
Per Axbom
Ah okay.
Whitney Hess
And so we’ve been there for the last couple of weeks. And I thought we were going to be up there the whole time. But then an opportunity arose to come down here. Because Frederick’s uncle lives in Saltsjöbaden, and is still up there with his mom. So we got a chance to come and stay at his place for a few days, so here we are.
James Royal-Lawson
That’s just up the road. That’s not too far away at all, Saltsjöbaden.
Per Axbom
Yeah, so I’m a huge fan actually. Have been for many years reading your blog, and basically following whatever you’ve written, because it’s always been so enlightening in some way. And you yourself, I’ve heard you say that you want to push the boundaries of what UX is. And I think you really have actually.
Whitney Hess
Thankyou.
Per Axbom
yeah, we’ve read your definition of UX.
James Royal-Lawson
How is the wallpaper business?
Whitney Hess
I loved that episode, not just because your talk. But you you were very funny. So thank you. I appreciate you sharing my UX definition with your listeners,
Per Axbom
What we want to talk about today, primarily, I think is you’ve done this fantastic journey over the last couple of years, going from being much of a producer of wireframes, as many of us are today, to someone who coaches, other people for six months at a time. I don’t know how often a week. And that just seems so appealing to me that I’ve talked about it, but I’ve thought about but how would I sell something like that? Because I realise how useful it would be for my clients to actually have someone on board for a longer period of time and not just deliver stuff that they can they can take care of in the end.
Whitney Hess
Exactly.
Per Axbom
So tell us a bit about that journey.
Whitney Hess
Okay. Well, many years ago when I was getting very tired of staying up all night, doing wireframes because of the very tight deadlines that I was on as a consultant. I had lunch with a friend who shared a piece of wisdom with me. I had asked him how do I get more user research projects, where they’re really hiring me for the insights about their customer base, and not so much about whether I can draw boxes on the page for them, because I don’t think this is really useful. And I told him, I have this whole process that I go through. But it seems like every time I try to eliminate wireframes, you know, from the projects, they won’t hire me. And he said, ‘Well, you know, people hire you for the last deliverable you give them.’ And I thought, ‘Well, what do you mean by that?’ And he said, ‘they just put up with everything that you do beforehand, the real reason they hired you was for the wireframes. So you need to stop offering to do wireframes, if you don’t want to do wireframes.’ And that was a real revelation for me. And so in my subsequent projects, I just removed everything after, essentially strategy phase, because that was what I really wanted to be focusing on. Because I had found over the years, that even though I love the design, and I got so much satisfaction out of the design phase, it wasn’t having the same, the long lasting impact on the company that I wanted it to. And so once I was gone, all that thinking came with me, and the company didn’t really benefit. So I after that kind of went on this, this journey to insert myself earlier and earlier and earlier in the process. To the point when I then started to ask myself, what would my business look like if I had no deliverables at all? And it was a crazy thought.
Per Axbom
Though, hang on you, you decided that I don’t want to do wireframes you stopped doing them? Its seems so mind-blowingly simple, but it must have taken I mean, did people question you? I mean, what’s going on? And what’s happening here? Why aren’t you doing the stuff that you used to do?
Whitney Hess
Yes, people did question me. And I had to get very good at explaining why it was still important to hire me, even though I wasn’t going to do the wireframes. So with each step of my trajectory of how I mature my business, I have to get even better at communicating my value. And so over the years, I’ve put far more emphasis into becoming a better communicator, than I have becoming a better designer. And as a result, I’m not so much of a designer anymore. But I am doing work that I consider to be very beneficial to companies over the long term. Because I’m now enabling them to do the design work for themselves, using the principles that we so deeply believe in, rather than that all living in my head, them giving the work away to me, and then me trying to convince them of the solution later on.
James Royal-Lawson
You’re also you’re you’re giving them the tools in order to communicate further down the chain. So you’re helping them come with the ideas and designs for then they’ve got to communicate, communication doesn’t vanish. Meaning so if you’re delivering wireframes, and so on, then they need to be explained often or communicated. So then you’ve got to help them have the tools to communicate to stakeholders or to to other members of the team instead.
Whitney Hess
And it’s so much more credible when it’s coming from someone internally. Because now they have developed a stronger relationship with their superiors with their peers and other departments, the people that they have to collaborate with to actually make it a reality. And they believe in it, and they own the solution because they came up with it themselves. And now they’re learning how to navigate the politics of the organisation in order to create sustainable change. Whereas I was like coming in with a sledgehammer. I mean, that’s really what a consultant is. It’s like, okay, we’re ready for a change, whack. And even though that can be very beneficial in the short term, I have found that the quicker you change things, the more easily they can change back. The slower the change, the harder it is to change back because it’s been gradual over time, and it’s one inch at a time. And that’s what coaching is, coaching is not coming in with a sledgehammer and saying, ‘you guys are morons, you do everything wrong. ‘Let me show you the genius of user experience that’s going to solve all your problems. And we’re going to do everything differently from now on.’ Instead, it’s saying, ‘okay, I really understand why you’re in this situation. And I hear that you have a vision for another way to be, what are the baby steps that we can take. The new habits that we can help you form as individuals and as a team, so that when you live in those little habits, eventually that will change your behaviour enough that you change the story of who you are as a team as a company, slowly over time.’
James Royal-Lawson
I mean, I, I say that I do coaching and that’s almost always the case, when I’ve, when I’m working tightly with with one client as a representative from a company, and I’ve got a relationship with them. And they’ve, they’ve come to me, and they’ve hired me for particular thing, but but you you develop a relationship with them, and you learn from them the the nuances of their organisation, because you don’t serve as a consultant, you are the sledgehammer. And I don’t know that, you know, that word is a trigger word to that manager. And he’s going to make him go back into his shell and never improve anything, but maybe your client does know that. And so you can have that relationship and dialogue and, help them or educate them or coach them into understanding what you’re doing and what you need to work on. And then they can then take it further, internally.
Per Axbom
and not only manager, I mean, developers.
James Royal-Lawson
Well yeah
Per Axbom
Yeah, I’m sitting quite tightly with the team right now. And especially one of the developers, we’ve got this excellent dialogue going on. And we’ve been sitting like, literally 10 feet apart. And we’ve come to the point now, after working almost two and a half years together, that he’s doing stuff, because he knows how I would do it and not understand the reasoning behind it. And some time back he asked me, ‘so I don’t really need you, do I? What are you here for?’ And I said ‘I’m here to make you feel confident in making those changes and taking those decisions.’ But in the in the end, it’s true.
James Royal-Lawson
You’re his wingman.
Per Axbom
He doesn’t need me which is fantastic.
Whitney Hess
Doesn’t it feel amazing?
Per Axbom
Yes, yes.
James Royal-Lawson
Yeah
Whitney Hess
I get so much more satisfaction out of getting no credit now than I ever did out of getting all the credit. Because I know that they truly changed. They truly learned something, their approach changed the way that they think the way that they want to serve their customers, they’ve internalised it. And so no longer being needed by my clients is the best gift they could give me.
James Royal-Lawson
Yeah, I like it. I like it when you’re sat in a presentation or meeting and the person you’ve been working with them up there, and they’re talking, and you can hear bits of yourself coming out. Thinking that’s excellent. Now I’ve managed to get in, I’ve got something across, I’ve made a difference, because now I’ve gotten them to see with other eyes, maybe this particular aspect of the project, and they’ve taken a new angle on it. And they don’t need me in the same sense. But the journey was needed.
Whitney Hess
Yeah. To your point, you just reminded me of two experiences that I had with clients that I feel really illustrate what coaching is all about for me. The first was with a small startup, where I was brought in to help them conduct some user research. They were at this tipping point where they were about to experience a lot of growth. And they really wanted to better understand the ways that they should be designing new products. And I was with one of the founders of the company doing all these user interviews. And in a cab ride between interviews, he starts sharing with me how he’s really worried about his other co-founder, he’s working himself to the bone. They’ve been really disagreeing on the mission for the company moving forward, they’re not seeing eye to eye. And in this 20 minute cab ride, I was able to just listen to him, hear him and offer him some tools for how to improve his communication with his co founder because they were both fried. And they had been working on this for two years. And, you know, a lot of things happen between people over that time. I am more proud of the result of that 20 minute cab ride than I am of any of the user interviews that I did. Because the reality is learning the best practices for how to conduct a user interview to yield the best possible data and insight. It’s not rocket science. It really isn’t. Yes, there are subtleties that we develop over time as we mature our own practice to understand how to read body language. What the next best question to ask, how to not, you know, roll people over. Of course we learn those things, but he needed someone to empathise with him in that moment. And he needed to be heard and he needed a better way to communicate with his co-founder. Another situation that comes up that I’m reminded of is a company in New York that I was working with, that I’ve actually done many projects with, and the first time I met them. They had just brought a team of people together that had been working together for five+ years. But they were now brought together to be a prototyping team because they had never had any kind of user experience in the company. And they were bringing me in to help them establish a process. And before the official meeting started, I was there a few minutes early. We’re sitting in the conference room, six of us, and I’m not yet “on” (heavy quotes) teaching them something or sharing something about what we’re going to do together. I’m just like, Oh, hey, you know, how’s it going, getting to know each individual that I’ve never met. And somehow it comes up that one guy, who’s a total nerd, used to be the lead singer in a heavy metal band that toured the US and was like, really popular 10/15 years ago. Another guy has a stigmatism in his eye because he was a champion archery player, Archer, I guess, when he was in high school and was, you know, had all these awards. One woman was from Russia, and she had come to visit New York when she was 18 years old on holiday and fell so in love with it, she never went back. There was just one story after the exit just came up in the first five minutes of meeting them. And none of them knew these stories about them, about each other.
Per Axbom
Wow.
Whitney Hess
So in the first five minutes made them even though I didn’t say user experience is the practice by which you do X, Y, and Z. Just taking the time for them to get to know each other on a human level, and learn those things about each other, completely transformed the dynamic of their team. And of course, they work better together. Of course, they appreciate one another more, and they want to get get to know each other more now. And that, to me is the essence of what user experience is, forget about the interviews, the personas, the wireframes, seeing the other people you work with, and the people that you serve as human beings, and being constantly curious about them. That, that to me is is at the core of what we do. And that’s what I think my coaching lets me do.
Per Axbom
That’s a beautiful story.
Whitney Hess
Thank you.
Per Axbom
And I know that identity is something you’ve explored in multiple locations as well. In your first episode, since I listened to your podcast, ‘Designing Yourself,’ that you were talking about and it was amazing, because I listened to the 10, first 10/15 minutes, and I was, oh my god, this is exactly what I’m going through right now. Because you have this problem of where do I post this content, which is so much more personal than other content on my blog. And so and you ended up doing it on medium, and that’s what I did last year as well, I ended up with medium. And you’re so afraid of I don’t know, people seeing you for who you are, which in the story you just told it just shows how important it is. And you shouldn’t listen to those people who maybe put you down?
James Royal-Lawson
Well, also the whole thing that it’s actually easier to be yourself than to maintain a facade over a long period of time.
Whitney Hess
Yes.
James Royal-Lawson
So if you if you’re branding yourself or pitches of certain thing, and that’s something you’ve got to work in, constantly be aware of it hyper aware of it, and that takes energy. Whereas if you are just you that doesn’t really take that much energy.
Whitney Hess
In a way I agree, I really do. The energy goes into unlearning all the things that we’ve been taught by our families, by our society, you know, by people that have come into our lives over the years that have convinced us in some way, that being fully ourselves is somehow wrong, and should be avoided, and especially the messages that we get in the Western world, about the separation between work and life. I mean, it is, it’s wild, that we talk about work life balance. Work, is a part of life, life is the whole thing. And we are the same human being, whether we’re in the office or out of the office, and that compartmentalization that many of us are taught to develop, gets in the way of truly connecting with the other people that we work with, and truly connecting with our customers. Because now that we’re only a sliver of our true selves in the workplace where the professional version, I’m not going to admit anything about my past. I’m not going to admit anything about you know what I did this weekend or my relationship or anything, I’m just, I’m all work. There’s no emotions involved. How can we possibly understand the emotions of our customers? How can we possibly connect with them fully? We are compartmentalising ourselves and fragmenting ourselves. So a big part of what I aim to do now as a coach is to help people reintegrate and my mean actually align their minds the thing that we value more than anything else in our culture, their hearts, so their emotional selves and their bodies. Because the reason why the two co founders that I mentioned earlier were struggling, was because they were physically unwell because all they were doing was working all day, every day for two years to try to get this company off the ground. And they weren’t doing their best work anymore, because they were exhausted. Your physical body is a big part of it too. Just sitting down and eating lunch together and enjoying one another and making a practice of saying over lunch, ‘we’re not talking about work’ that’s now a practice of these other clients of mine, because they realise that their existing practices got in the way of them knowing each other as people.
Per Axbom
Wow. I think that’s actually a perfect note to end on it. James’s children are coming into the studios.
Whitney Hess
You know what, it couldn’t be more fitting because James has children. And that’s worth knowing. And you can’t keep life out all the time.
James Royal-Lawson
No I can try though. Sorry. The bigger child needs my headset. I have nightmares with this little headset. I’ll try turn the speaker off.
Whitney Hess
I have this big yellow ball over my microphone, you guys have these great like Madonna headsets.
James Royal-Lawson
But I end up just dragging everything with me when I try to shut the door.
Per Axbom
There’s one thing I wanted to ask you about as well,
Whitney Hess
please do!
Per Axbom
You live on a sailboat, our listeners don’t know that.
Whitney Hess
We do!
Per Axbom
How long have you lived on a sailboat?
Whitney Hess
We have lived aboard since October of last year. So less than a year. We live in San Diego, California right now. And it is a wonderful lifestyle. We have very few belongings anymore. And it really is a simple way to live. It certainly has its challenges. So I’m not going to pretend that everything’s easy. We have very little space between Frederick and myself. And when I have calls and he’s off, we’ve got a you know, he’s got to go somewhere. I have to go somewhere. So I have had an office. It’s been wonderful. We are on our way to a new destination though. And we have yet to figure out where.
Per Axbom
okay.
Whitney Hess
But we are, we are currently exploring this summer looking for different places that we may want to live. And once we figure it out, then we’ll figure out how to get our boat there.
James Royal-Lawson
Also the boat, the boat is still a boat, because sometimes you get the fixed
Whitney Hess
yes
James Royal-Lawson
they’re moored somewhere. So you can actually sail around?
Whitney Hess
It does get around it does in fact sail and we live in a marina now. We have to do some upgrades to it to get it a very far distance. But we’re excited. Yeah, we’re both very fortunate to be independent and be able to travel and it’s exciting to be here in Sweden, it’s only my second time and my first time in the Stockholm area. So yeah, it’s a it’s a fun life.
Per Axbom
I think even that’s inspirational. Because you It seems like you’ve been so brave, you’ve really challenged what life is about..
James Royal-Lawson
and what you’re expected to be..
Per Axbom
and gone after, gone after what you think is right, with the coaching stuff as well I mean. So it seems like you’re really living the way you preach, which is kind of cool.
Whitney Hess
Trying really hard. And it comes with a lot of sacrifice. You know, we don’t have the stable home, and all the stuff that you get to buy and put it at and, and we don’t have kids and we don’t have pets, and we don’t have all sorts of things that people value having in their life. We don’t live near family. That’s something we’ve had to sacrifice for now. Because we see this part of our lives as time in our lives as being the best time for us to go and explore an adventure. And there’s time for that later. We hope. So we’ll say life is short, and we’re just trying to live as much of it as we can. And, and I feel that with my business too. I don’t want to be thinking about how I could have done it differently. Even if it scares me. I want to push myself to try and so far it’s been working out really well.
James Royal-Lawson
Awesome. I think it’s excellent. Yeah. And hope you keep on having adventures.
Per Axbom
Yes.
Whitney Hess
Thank you so much. I’m so glad my adventures led me here today. And thank you so much for wanting to do this recording.
Per Axbom
Thank you.
James Royal-Lawson
Thanks for joining us Whitney.
Whitney Hess
Take care, bye!
Per Axbom
Bye bye!
[Music]
James Royal-Lawson
Every now and then we have we have interviews or conversations with people on UX podcast where they really quite reflective moments. But for me anyway. I mean, the podcasts, I think
Per Axbom
They’re quite reflective for me as well.
James Royal-Lawson
I think one of the things that like, the whole, both of us, we do this podcast, actually primarily because we learn so much and we love talking to people and thinking and playing with some of the ideas and concepts and subject matter that gets thrown at us by guests. But this chat with Whitney was one of those ones where I could get very introspective and reflective afterwards and seeing a lot of myself in what she was saying. And the journey, again, your different starting points, and maybe, you know, different things on the way but as a journey. After so long in the industry, I can relate to a lot of what she was saying. Like with coaching, I even have noticed since doing that interview, I mean, you have talked an awful lot about coaching. And I’ve started using the explanation of coaching, in describing what I do an awful lot more in the eight weeks since we have talked to Whitney.
Per Axbom
Yeah. And I’ve even started a course for becoming a coach a certified coach.
James Royal-Lawson
You started doing a course it’s not like you’re hosting your own.
Per Axbom
Yeah I’m taking a course. I’m not doing it. Just realising that how, how can I do my best work? How can I make a difference? What can I do with all the knowledge I have, and I could keep producing stuff. But as we’ve now just talked to Whitney about is, that when we produce stuff, we’re not helping people become better at their job, or we’re not? Well, the thing is, I often come into companies, and I help them do interaction design. And I help them produce deliverables. And I work with the developers to produce results. And, but the people actually working at the company, and they don’t have ownership of that product, they don’t know much about it. And of course, when I come back one or two years later, a lot of the stuff that we produced is gone. And that’s been the case for almost my entire working life since the late 90s. And now I’m realising more and more that if I can actually get people thinking for themselves, about how what they can do to create these products, then I’ll make a bigger difference and have a better impact on what’s being produced. And that also ties a lot in with when we’ve talked to Lisa Welshman about, are you doing your best work? I mean, the world is becoming digital, what is our responsibility for making the world a better place? That sounds all high and mighty, but thats the thing.
James Royal-Lawson
Spreading understanding spreading knowledge, which what we try and do with the podcast, and even in our work is fundamental to that.
Per Axbom
Yeah. You can’t keep the knowledge to yourself.
James Royal-Lawson
No, no, it’s not effective to do so. Like, if I think if you’ve, if you present a solution, by whatever it is, I mean, it could be a design, it could be whatever kind of solution to a client’s or a business problem you’ve got, might have taken you days, hours, weeks, why don’t I might be an awful lot of research work time and effort gone into that. And then you’re there for that meeting, and you present it. And someone, maybe I don’t think I’m gonna use a stupid example. I don’t like green. And your, and your entire, your entire work just collapses in front of you in that meeting, because the wrong person said the wrong thing. Whereas if that if that group had been more included in the process, then they would have a better insight and understanding into the thinking that goes on, to come to the point you’ve done. So you know, we know that not necessarily that something getting in to the coaching aspect of that, you need to coach people into the work you’re doing to have a better understanding of the work you’re doing. So they can better value, the work you’re doing. And they can replicate some of it, if not all of it themselves, to make the process smoother and easier further down the line.
Per Axbom
And use you more as a person to bounce ideas off. And someone to feel at home with if you’re feeling unsure of something. But it goes against being a consultant sometimes it’s I mean, companies do outsource because they want people and stuff done.
James Royal-Lawson
But I think it’s but I think it’s a fair enough business model to have a business model where your goal is not to be needed.
Per Axbom
Yes.
James Royal-Lawson
I mean, you know, that’s, it’s like a doctor. I mean, their goal isn’t for people to be sick. The doctor’s goal is that they want everyone to be healthy.
Per Axbom
Yeah.
James Royal-Lawson
And I think that’s the same for us. We want everyone to produce really good digital solutions or digital things.
Per Axbom
That’s a great likeness. Yeah, I liked when we talked about that. And interview just now when we say that, yeah, what a fantastic feeling to feel not needed. Because that means you’ve done your work well, and you can move on and help someone else.
James Royal-Lawson
Yeah. And I really like what Whitney said as well, her advice, you need to stop doing the things you don’t want to do.
Per Axbom
yeah haha.
James Royal-Lawson
If you don’t want to do wireframes, you stop doing wireframes, which is who just cut them out completely. And that’s, that’s, it’s a bold, move on. And in some situations, you’re going to struggle to take that decision. And you might not even be allowed to take that decision in your current job or your current position. It might involve, if you want to change path, it might involve changing jobs more than once, to actually eliminate the things that you don’t want to do. So you can concentrate on doing the things you do want to do. And maybe produce your best work.
Per Axbom
Also, then, really important to what Whitney’s saying about. That means you have to become a much better communicator, because you need to help people understand why what you’re producing is valuable still.
James Royal-Lawson
Yeah, exactly. And the humanisation. That seeing the people you work with, and your users as human beings is crucial.
Per Axbom
Yeah.
James Royal-Lawson
And it is critical to communicating as well, you’ve can’t, if you don’t understand that you’re talking to humans, other humans, and you don’t get to communicate to them.
Per Axbom
Which then is the essence of UX. It’s not about strategy or something else. It’s about seeing people as human beings, and helping them as human beings. It sounds really deep now.
James Royal-Lawson
Yeah, what did we say? It’s a very, it’s a very reflective interview. And and, and we’ve had time, because this is an unusually long amount of time from recording an interview to us recording an intro/outro.
Per Axbom
Yes.
James Royal-Lawson
Some people think we do all in one go. But we quite often piece these together over a bit of time. And eight weeks of reflection, that I think that is what I mean, but what has happened to allow us to become a bit more even more reflective of it. We’ve thought about this a lot. And you’ve made some decisions based on that interview that have also altered your autumn.
Per Axbom
Exactly.
James Royal-Lawson
But I think it’s a it’s quite a logical natural progression, the journey that Whitney’s taken from production, from being a cog in the machine, to moving up and out and making yourself more evolved earlier and earlier in processes until she starts to see the processes from almost above. And being able to just, you know, kind of help and enable people to do those processes better becomes the natural end point and how it fits into UX is completely natural.
Per Axbom
It is allowing other people to do their best work as well, yeah.
James Royal-Lawson
Well, we both got a lot out of that conversation with Whitney.
Per Axbom
Yeah. This podcast has been a repeat show from our archives. Let us know which of your favourite episodes over the years do you think should be repeated for more people to listen to.
James Royal-Lawson
Links and notes on a full transcript for this classic episode of UX podcast can be found on UXpodcast.com. Don’t forget to press follow or subscribe or whatever call to action button your podcasting client of choice is presenting you with if you haven’t already pressed it.
Per Axbom
And remember you can contribute to funding the show by visiting uxpodcast.com/ support. Remember to keep moving.
James Royal-Lawson
See you on the other side.
[Music]
James Royal-Lawson
Per, Someone last week, broke into my house and stole 20% of my couch.
Per Axbom
Ouch.
This is a transcript of a conversation between James Royal-Lawson, Per Axbom and Whitney Hess originally recorded in September 2015 and published as episode 110 and 265 of UX Podcast.