A transcript of Episode 230 of UX Podcast. James Royal-Lawson and Per Axbom and Sara Öhman discuss growth marketing.  

This transcript has been machine generated and checked by Ruth Atamenwan.

Transcript

James Royal-Lawson
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Computer voice
UX podcast episode 230.

[Music]

James Royal-Lawson
I’m James Royal-Lawson, and I’m Per Axbom and this UX podcast; Balancing Business Technology and People every over Friday since 2011, with listeners in 192 countries around the world from South Africa to Luxembourg.

Per Axbom
Sara Öhman is a Digital Marketing Consultant, passionate about social psychology and business development and highly motivated by entrepreneurial spirit and culture.

James Royal-Lawson
And in recent years, Sara has been focusing on driving traffic and sales mainly from social media by setting up workflows within hundreds of organisations, who are aspiring to use digital as a main marketing channel.

Per Axbom
And she also designs and teaches courses in digital tactics, social media, and influencer marketing and she’s a content marketing specialist and advises on newsletter tactics.

James Royal-Lawson
Her list keeps going on and on. She’s a superwoman. And we were curious to learn more about something we’d heard called Growth Marketing, and we thought Sara would be a really good choice person to talk to.

[Music]

Per Axbom
So Sara, I think I met you in 2011, on an island for IT geeks and nerds. And four years later, you are the social media master of Sweden, which is just insane to see how you grew into that person that everybody was talking about, “you need to speak to Sara because you need to fix your IT solutions.” The thing is, I’ve never exactly understood what it is you do.

Sara Öhman
Just like everyone else,

Per Axbom
But everybody obviously needs what you do. So just give a brief description what you tell clients that you can help them with.

Sara Öhman
You design workflows, right? Like the sites, and that’s what I do with communication, trying to map out what kind of touch points they have with their clients and how to get the clients more engaged with what they do.

Per Axbom
But you use the term journey map, for example.

Sara Öhman
I don’t. Not to the clients because my clients are marketers and they are not familiar with that word. So maybe communication flows, but not exactly like that.

Per Axbom
But to me it sounds very similar to what we do when you map out how a person moves between the different touch points of a company.

Sara Öhman
Yes. It’s quite similar.

James Royal-Lawson
So the phrase that everyone seems to be bouncing around is Growth Marketer. So what makes you a growth marketer?

Sara Öhman
I don’t know. I think, that’s an expression who’s has come up with the last year? Maybe. But so new. But yeah, I think it’s quite new because because before we call it Growth Hacking, so it’s a what is Growth Hacking; growth hacking was to like find out easy ways to get the directions from people that you could like build upon to build growth, right. But growth marketing, I think it’s more of looking at it in a more broader perspective, looking at how can we use the data that the clients generate, to get more creative, like in a broader perspective, and also build more brands than just to focus on, like how to drive conversions.

James Royal-Lawson
Conversions is the main thing when you’re working with ecommerce or detail.. or what do you call it? Yeah, ecommerce. Well the other things are then you would be focusing on within conversion

Sara Öhman
I think ecommerce had like been the role model for every company. It’s not doesn’t matter if it’s like public sector or if it’s like big brands, they are all been focusing on conversion just because they realise that it’s with digital, it’s more easy to drive sales. But I also think the second thing is they want to build brand. But what I think we’re moving into now is looking into all of the other touch points as mentioned. How do we activate our customers while but in-between the branding and the awareness face and the commercial face because that’s, that’s what the challenge really is now.

James Royal-Lawson
And of course, the conversion would be the I suppose if you looked at as a funnel, and that is the very closing stage of it, where you’ve got several parts of the process before that?

Sara Öhman
Yeah.

Per Axbom
So what type of research do you do then? What is the research process like?

Sara Öhman
We all have different channels to communicate, we have digital channels we have like in-store channels or other kinds of touch points. And it’s more about looking at what kind of interactions can we get from each channel? And what do people do? What do people like for how long do they watch a video? Or do they click on this picture or something? So it’s everything. Before going into the commercial?

Per Axbom
I’m thinking about how do you learn as much as possible about the people you are? as are the clients or the customers? Are there interviews being done or there’s surveys being done? How do you make sure that flow that you map out how you make sure that it’s something that is true to reality?

Sara Öhman
I think you test stuff, you design stuff, and you come up with stereotypes just says maybe you do as well in your work and you create the messaging, you create images in the way that you think that it would mas their personality or something like that. And then you go and look at the channels, what kind of functionality do we have here? Is it in stores in the physical world? Or is it for example, in social media or Google AdWords? And you see, if you go with them test, Will people click on this? Or is this picture better than this picture? or How long will they watch this movie. It’s confirming what we think about the customers or so it’s more of like testing and learning and then build your tactical strategies upon that.

Per Axbom
What do you think the clients have the hardest time with doing that you tell them to do?

Sara Öhman
Maybe be brave and test stuff and excluding people, like excluding people excluding like being more specific with their messaging. Since in like today’s world in today’s communication, our attention span is really really short and you don’t have as much time and we need to be more personal and have really specific messaging like the generic messaging we’ve seen before, isn’t really working. So then that means that they need to exclude, like, certain customers.

James Royal-Lawson
Right, so we are focusing on, so narrowing your your target audience rather than, I suppose, excluding

Per Axbom
rather than deciding

James Royal-Lawson
Shutting the door

Per Axbom
rather than designing for everybody. You’re deciding who you’re designing for.

Sara Öhman
Yeah. And even though you can have a big target audience, you need to think about like, what’s the one person you want to target? Like, what will be the messaging and I think that’s the hardest thing that the clients have,

Per Axbom
Right? Understanding that it’s often easier if you’re, if you’re thinking about a person you’re writing for, for example, it’s much easier to write and then content becomes better whereas if you’re trying to write for everybody at the same time, it really doesn’t work.

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah. But of course, the the organisation itself is going to really really want to reach everyone because that’s how they maximise

Sara Öhman
And even though they still say what they thinking about in these terms, but they they really don’t. To change the perspective really focusing on the customer thinks that’s the biggest challenge.

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah, I can imagine, it must be challenging. When you have, if you using terms like growth hacking and growth marketers, they think that will you grow by reaching out to more broader, wider, more groups of people then you say to them well no that should be actually to grow your narrowing.

Sara Öhman
Yes. To feel people to make them feel targeted. And now you can see so many, especially new brands who’s doing this really well like saying, this is where we’re trying to reach this action. You jumping out of aeroplanes, but we’re actually targeting men in their 40s maybe. And you can see like that they are growing but they are like, their messaging are so really specific.

Per Axbom
So what types of industries do you prefer working with? Because you seem to be working with everyone.

Sara Öhman
Yes. These days, I do. I do not.

Per Axbom
You’re not been specific!

Sara Öhman
Exactly. But I think I’m being specific, specific in the way I work and the way I work with the clients and the ideas that they have for what they are trying to achieve. That’s how I’m being specific. I work with like wine importers where the main goal is to work with the algorithms of Swedish Systembolaget. That’s a really different kind of ecosystem,

James Royal-Lawson
In other words, the Government off-licence here in Sweden.

Sara Öhman
But you could also be like the motocross community, have you heard about that, motorcycles?

James Royal-Lawson
I’ve seen you posting on Instagram, about motocross bikes, and things.

Sara Öhman
But like everyone has the same challenge today. And it’s like changing their organisations, I think and changing their perspective because, like, we’re going from this growth hacking world where numbers are really important then we now need to look at, okay, how do we build brand loyalty? I think that’s a really big challenge that companies have these days because the other channels in my world have like run out, they are not effective anymore. And it gets really costly, the same thing. We don’t watch TV anymore. So what will be the replacement for that then people also say we don’t really believe in Ads anymore. Ads could like harm your brand and your trust. So it’s like everyone has this challenge. And I think the solution I’ve seen, like in all companies is how people talk to each other. In the marketing teams,

Per Axbom
Interesting. It really does sound like you are working with industries that the rest of us aren’t working with, because I think both you and I, James, we’ve worked with big companies, digitised companies, that there’s a clear benefit to going digital. Whereas it sounds like you’re actually approaching the industries that are really struggling with how do we even think about digital and the work we do?

James Royal-Lawson
Oh, yeah, maybe traditionally, you said the channels would have been the print media, the old school channels that you’d use. Yeah, well, or information. I mean, I was in love with corporate sites and informational best sites, which which doesn’t know doesn’t normally have that connection to marketing in the same.

Sara Öhman
It’s so interesting to join this podcast because I never get to talk to people like you in my work. I know that you’re there, but I just try to do like everything else before they come to the sites or to the products or to the services. And I know it’s like it connects so well because what I do will make your work more easier. Right, because if people know more about the products before they go in and what to expect from the products, it would be much easier

James Royal-Lawson
And its the same way around that if we’ve done a good job of understanding how users or customers use what we design and test that it works to actually do what they need, then that makes the whole chain work.

Sara Öhman
So how often do you use the insights that marketers have? Because since I know a lot of, I know so many things about the customers, and because I use other platforms, I use Facebook and Google and other platforms to get more insights about the customers or the users. Do you ever get to use this kind of data? In your work?

Per Axbom
I don’t think in the sense that you’re thinking because there’s usually this disconnect, where you’re the marketing department is something else. They’re marketing, they’re not working with usability and making it user-friendly. They’re like the sales people who are the evil people who are trying to convince someone to buy even though they may not want to. So again, we’re working in silos,

Sara Öhman
Yes.

Per Axbom
And we’re not paying attention to what everyone else is doing an organisation.

Sara Öhman
And that’s so weird because how people use other services, digital services should affect you. work because, like,

Per Axbom
Exactly.

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah, I mean, I use a lot of data in the work i do, to understand behaviour on the sites I work with. But I say I don’t work with sites where they have that clear. There’s not consumer aspect to most of the ones I work with just now.

Per Axbom
Right, I think,

James Royal-Lawson
I think with some of the ones I work with I’m the one generating the insights and highlighting that, well, maybe you want to look more into that because they’re coming from there, or they’re doing this or I can see that this is happening. Which, to me feels more normal when it is the, these non-sales based things I work with.

Per Axbom
That’s a good point, because we are the ones going out there and talking to the people who have the touch points with the companies and we’re figuring out what do they know, what are their preconceptions, so how do we use that information about so we are basically doing some of the marketing work, I guess. But that’s because we’re working with specific digital products,

James Royal-Lawson
Say when I worked with enterprise products, I go out and meet the customers, we use the enterprise products. And you know, I do a lot of helping them understand how the product can be used, which is effectively part of a customer relationship, which would maybe fall under sales or marketing.

Sara Öhman
But that’s interesting, because I’ve seen the trend, who is your client in the companies? Is the IT person? Or is it?

James Royal-Lawson
I’ve almost always worked with communication departments, Going back over the years, it’s rare that I’m working through IT departments.

Per Axbom
I think in the 90s, you work through IT, because that’s where the web lived. But then the communications people were like,”Well, hey, we’re communicating with people here. So it’s our ownership here.” That’s cool. But I don’t even know who I’m working with right now.

Sara Öhman
So we’re working with the same people Yeah, but still they’re not using us, like combining our work. That’s really interesting. But one thing I’ve seen like for a marketing department, I’ve seen marketing departments hiring the IT persons to become the marketer today, okay.

Per Axbom
Really?

Sara Öhman
Yeah, I like him a lot of big companies, just because they need more other kind of em.

Sara Öhman
Yeah. competence or skills.

James Royal-Lawson
So they so they see the so the driving process, the driving knowledge in the recruitment, is there technical ability with these different platforms with things that we’re we’re working with, rather than their marketing ability?

Sara Öhman
Yes, exactly. I think because I think that’s what’s missing today. And what I think is missing today is like the systematical thinking, I think that’s more easy to find in the IT area than in marketing because in marketing of course when you think about psychology, that’s a kind of skill. But combining these two, I think can be really powerful.

Per Axbom
And isn’t it the language that is preventing us from doing just that? Because that’s why I asked do you call it a journey map and you don’t. But we always call it a journey map or something to that end, and we’re doing the same things. We want the same things. But for some reason, we’re trying to protect our own area of work, which, of course, is detrimental to the whole experience in the end. We’re just really bad at talking to each other. Which is weird. Especially I find that more and more in the UX industry that are using UX itself, that word is a barrier to understanding because we don’t talk about what value we provide. Clients just want UX. And clients learn the words. So they asked for the journey map, whether or not they really need it. They need something that is the goal. There’s a solution for person out there. They don’t need a journey map. That’s my tool if I choose it. Exactly.

James Royal-Lawson
And it’s the same for you as well. They’ve learned a phrase, and then they come to you because they hear you talking about that phrase as well.

Sara Öhman
Yeah. And that’s why I think it’s so funny because now it’s called growth marketing. Yeah. I’ve never really like, positioned myself in knowing, like a specific topic except social media. Because that’s what’s really easy to like, get on board with but the clients like whatever they want to call it.

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah.

Per Axbom
That’s a good point.

James Royal-Lawson
It is.. Thinking about that’s often how works for me, i mean I’ll get questions about like SEO, or analytics. And then when you start working with it, you actually you answer the same thing – its still user experience, it’s still kind of making sure things happen like they should be happening, no matter how they framed it on the way in.

Per Axbom
How do we solve this though, because I mean, this this is what happens when with some of my clients. The Managers come and ask me. So how do we get more people like you, Per? And they asked me, well, your UX, right. So if we want more people like you, we ask for UXers. Well, not really, because when you ask for UX, you can get anything. So that’s what I hear people asking for Sara because people know that they get quality when they ask for you. They don’t ask for specific competence. How do we describe what we’re doing? That is my issue.

James Royal-Lawson
You throw the hard question at her.

Sara Öhman
Yes.

Per Axbom
You’re succeeding because you’re working with all these clients who actually don’t have a lot of IT skills, but I feel that you’re actually managing to help them understand that you’re providing value without using any of the complex words.

Sara Öhman
Yes. I don’t know what kind of question that was but…

Per Axbom
It was affirmation of your coolness.

Sara Öhman
So thank you for that.

Sara Öhman
I think a lot of things is changing right now I’m really looking forward to 2020. Because marketers need to rethink what they are doing in so many ways, and especially seeing this change more and more going to look at different kinds of skills in the marketing department. So I think it will see like, it’s about the customers. cliche.

James Royal-Lawson
So what do they need to change then looking forward to next year? What’s going to happen?

Sara Öhman
They are still like, now we’re. So it’s December, right? Everyone is looking to plan their marketing budgets. That’s, that’s my main work right now. And like traditional marketing budgets have been looking like, so this is the channel we’ve been investing in TV, this much in digital. But I think we’re seeing a change now. Its like the marketing plans are developing and being more ad hoc based on insights and learning and not buying this much for awareness and this much for performance as it’s called. So I’m looking at other kinds of touch points like design and that kind of stuff. So I think that’s what’s happening.

James Royal-Lawson
I think when they’re doing marketing budgets, do they budget for actual changes to the digital product or digital website, did they budget for change to that? Or does that budget usually end up somewhere else?

Sara Öhman
That’s somewhere else. It’s only buying media that we’re talking about for the marketing budget. That’s really, really weird. That’s also messed up because, as you know, it’s the same people that we’re working with but one thing is production and that’s a separate kind of project. And then they are doing this and they are like treating it differently.

James Royal-Lawson
Because I mean, if you if you coming with insights about how a certain customer flow or whatever is working or not working and how people react to, or feel when they come to a certain point and you, your insight says that, well, we need to change this landing page or, or that kind of check-out, part the checkout. But you you don’t have any control over the budget.

Sara Öhman
Exactly.

James Royal-Lawson
That must be really frustrated.

Sara Öhman
And you haven’t really got the controls to get input and that’s me in my work, of course, because I work most on everything outside the services that they’re using. But you can get input of course, but that’s another team working with that. So…

Per Axbom
Silos again,

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah, I don’t I know that we over the years we’ve complained a lot about sales and marketing from a from a design perspective, that you have that situation where marketing sales have sold something that doesn’t exist, or they’ve they’ve sold it in a way which it wasn’t meant to be used or wasn’t meant to be done, and the frustration on our side is I mean, oh, why have you said that? So now suddenly have to panic designs or create the solution, because it’s already been promised to X number of companies or X number of thousand customers.

Sara Öhman
Yeah.

James Royal-Lawson
So you have the same frustration, but the other way around.

Sara Öhman
But marketers also have the frustration when the product team comes up with marketing that should be included within the like marketing process as well. Because I think from your side, just get the frustration, this is what we need to sell right now. This is what we need to sell for the product. So and it’s a totally different tonality, that kind of stuff.

Per Axbom
I’ve been wanting to ask you for some time because you’re a person who really lives your brand. You are on social media, and you are where I see most of you is Instagram stories, and you’re posting a lot of things, you obviously enjoy it. But are there points at which you think, “Oh my god, do I have to keep doing this?”

Sara Öhman
Yes. everyday. And right now I’ve been doing this, like, first of all, we had something in Sweden called blogg.se. It was like micro blogging. It was a blog platform. And that’s where I started from that going on to Twitter, and from Twitter going on to Instagram stories. So I’ve been doing this for many years. So it comes really natural to do this. But now there’s a new following, like people I don’t know. And the people that they know, it’s like outside. So it’s weird having really strangers, looking at your posts, and I think, “Do I really need to do this?” Because now I want to quit but I think my main driving force is for people to be more authentic. And I think my stories can help people be more authentic and think about their lives and like the work that they do. And I think that’s I can give up stuff. Other kind of stuff.

Per Axbom
I like that.

James Royal-Lawson
I like that too. Noble.

Per Axbom
Yeah. Thank you so much for joining us.

Sara Öhman
Thank you.

[Music]

James Royal-Lawson
That was really interesting to hear from Sara about how Growth Marketing is a new term. And that it has its roots in growth hacking. Exactly, which in its, in turn was connected to conversion optimisation,

Per Axbom
Which we like to talk down on sometimes because we think it’s not perhaps taking into account the whole experience.

James Royal-Lawson
Exactly. We mentioned on the show about how a number of years ago we were consuming of a lot of content around conversion optimisation and, and some of the psychological tricks you use to increase conversions and how you test maybe testing all these kind of stuff. And, that we felt that the industry has moved on a step at least the UX aspects of our industry have moved on to maybe not all been about conversion because it isn’t all about conversion.

Per Axbom
Exactly

James Royal-Lawson
Which is wonderful to hear, Sara coming more from the marketing side is indicating the same kind of thing from that silo?

Per Axbom
But it’s interesting that story, but also how Sara, herself really isn’t in control of the labels of things. She just does what she’s always been doing, essentially. And other people can call her whatever they want that is what she’s saying. As long as she gets to do her job well,

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah. Which is exactly what we’ve been talking about. We constantly come across the silos and I love the example of of the journey mapping and communication flows and doing very similar jobs. Yeah, and then she used the phrase stereotypes for personas We’re doing very similar work. It’s just slightly different labels that you’re putting on this thing and different customers. As I pointed out, she works with marketers,

Per Axbom
And it’s so funny when she points out, because we’ve known her for so long. And she also basically says, “I know people like you are in there somewhere, but I never get to talk to you.” And it’s weird that we actually have these silos. When you and I especially talk about wanting to break down silos, and I feel very confident about why haven’t I considered this enough? It’s like, I’m forgetting this part. And she really does say, “I’m the person who brings the people to the sites that you are designing.”

James Royal-Lawson
And just that disconnection there is as well between marketing budgets and budgets to make changes to the digital things. So Sara is helping people with the market budgets who are traditionally about buying media helping them do a better job with pushing the right people to the right place in the right state of mind with the right understanding. We are trying to do the best to understand maybe a holistic picture of how users feel, how they’re behaving, how the journeys go through our solutions, and make it better, more suitable, more winning concepts for both the organisations and the people themselves. But we’re doing that in, from a separate pot of money. Which isn’t sometimes not even just a separate part of money, it’s a separate pot of research. So we’re not just siloing budgets here. We’re we’re still siloing the research.

Per Axbom
Yeah! That’s so good. Because there’s so much potential here then for actually doing more research because there’s actually several budgets that want to do research. So if we work together, we could do a better job of understanding people throughout the whole journey. Ah, that’s actually frustrating. Why don’t we work more together?

James Royal-Lawson
Now I want Sara back because I want to ask you like, how many times do, I wonder, how they produce a communication flow. And then somewhere else in an organisation, they’ve actually produced a journey map. That must happen. You’ve got the top two artefacts.

Per Axbom
That’s right,

James Royal-Lawson
but which one? I want to put them together and kind of, you know, I want to map the overlaps. Yeah.

Per Axbom
And I do like what she says as well, that you actually summarised as to grow, you’re narrowing is that the reason you’re narrowing is because you’re actually understanding people better, which means you can communicate in their language better, which appeals more to them that you’re more aware of who you’re actually targeting.

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah, exactly. They ain’t going you’re targeting you’re going narrow, not excluding in the same sense as sometime we talked about exclusion as in stopping People from using our services but..

Per Axbom
Deciding who you’re talking to Yeah.

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah, narrowing is probably good for us to narrow your audience to be more understanding and to be more successful with the people, you’re actually talking to building a relationship with, instead of trying to be friends with everyone.

Per Axbom
Exactly.

James Royal-Lawson
I’m not doing a very good job of it.

Per Axbom
And that’s what she actually said was the toughest part for her clients to actually understand that they need to be more personal and create relationships with these people, which I think and I can actually feel that that is the case sometimes in UX as well. What you struggle with often is that to get the buy in, to do the actual research to go out and meet people, sometimes it feels like people are afraid or leadership is afraid to learn too much.

James Royal-Lawson
It’s once a leap of faith. Yeah, I mean, it’s connected discussions we’ve had about like A/B testing and so on, where other kind of tools where some things are really easy, they seem really easy to do. And it’s really easy to do my more traditional marketing, maybe what you you just run various campaigns to everyone used to do lots of these quick things. Doing that kind of narrowing, that research to narrowing, the understanding, building a more quality relationship with potential customers or users. That that is a little bit scary, maybe

Per Axbom
Scary. It takes a little bit more effort. But the return of that investment is so much greater.

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah. And then as, as Sara was saying, as we’re seeing that the the, the where, where there’s more success, the most success now in the most growth now is when you build quality, I mean, Sara herself said that people, it’s even becoming possibly brand damaging to run adverts.

Per Axbom
Right. That’s really interesting.

James Royal-Lawson
I mean, just turn your mind not too long ago, the whole concept that an advert might actually achieve the complete opposite of what it was designed to do. It’s fantastic.

Per Axbom
And of course, we have to end on how she ended as well that this whole aspect of her… she does post so much in social media, and her explanation for that about being authentic and showing her true self and being transparent. I appreciate that. It’s actually I mean, I couldn’t do it. I think I’ve tried it at some points in my life, but it’s just a lot of effort.

James Royal-Lawson
I mean, it’s sort of self jokes about her, her posting social media being like a docusoap. And she’s completely right with that understanding of what it is. And sometimes I feel like I’ve missed an episode or something that you see Sara post, and I think what is that? I don’t hold on, there’s something missing. But actually, she does post a lot, but that, but the whole thing that she said about her noble cause is making this all more authentic.

Per Axbom
Yeah.

James Royal-Lawson
And that is really warming.

Per Axbom
It is actually. And it’s nice that she’s so self self aware about it.

James Royal-Lawson
And nice how that attitude is something she’s trying to apply and succeeding to apply to organisations or just individuals that I really like.

Per Axbom
Some recommended listening after this. You remembered Episode 39 Where we chat to Jesper Åström. Also from Sweden, about the 1-9-90 model and engagement.

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah. And when I was doing some little digging for recommended reading, I actually noticed that back in Episode Two, and I haven’t listened to Episode Two, because this is

Per Axbom
Episode two!

James Royal-Lawson
Episode two. So we’re talking about nine years ago now, in part two of Episode Two, because we did the first episodes in three parts

Per Axbom
Oh there were too complicated.

James Royal-Lawson
Anyway. Moving on.

James Royal-Lawson
We actually talked about building customer relationships through marketing. It’d be really interesting to listen back and see where we said anything interesting.

Per Axbom
It really would. I haven’t to those episodes

James Royal-Lawson
Time Machine time.

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah. Well, thanks very much for listening. Always a pleasure. little reminder, you can contribute to funding UX podcast by visiting uxpodcast.com/support

Per Axbom
Remember to keep moving,

James Royal-Lawson
See you on the other side

[Music]

James Royal-Lawson
You’re already laughing a little bit.

Per Axbom
I’m always laughing a bit.

James Royal-Lawson
You were sniggering before you even start the joke.

Per Axbom
What do you call a man who can stand up?

James Royal-Lawson
I don’t know Per, what you call a man who can’t stand up,

Per Axbom
Neil.

This is a transcript of a conversation between James Royal-Lawson, Per Axbom and Sara Öhman recorded in December 2019 and published as Episode 230 of UX Podcast.