Computer voice
Season Two. Episode One.

[Music]

James Royal-Lawson
Hello, I’m James Royal-Lawson.

Per Axbom
And I’m Per Axbom,

James Royal-Lawson
and this is UX podcast. Welcome to Season Two. We’re still based in Stockholm, Sweden. And if our first season is anything to go by, you’re still listening to us in over 200 countries and territories all over the world.

Per Axbom
And I have to be honest with you, James, it’s going to take some time for me to wrap my head around the fact that after 310 episodes in Season One, we are now in a Season Two.

James Royal-Lawson
We are but I’m going to reassure myself by calling this one Episode 311.

Per Axbom
Excellent. [Laugh] Donna Lichaw is an executive coach, keynote speaker and with us today to talk about her new great book, the leaders journey, transforming your leadership to achieve the extraordinary. Her mission is to help unconventional leaders transform their impact so that they can make a positive change in the world.

James Royal-Lawson
Donna works with superheroes and teams of superheroes at companies like Google, Disney, Twitter, Microsoft, MailChimp, and Adobe as well as a plethora of startups and nonprofits.

Per Axbom
I want to work with superheroes. [Laugh]

James Royal-Lawson
You are a superhero Per. [Laugh]

Per Axbom
[Laugh] Of course, we all are. You can learn more about Donna, her work at donnalichaw.com, where you can also get her free newsletter, toolkit, exercises, workshops, courses, and of course, info on how to order her books.

[Music]

James Royal-Lawson
So the regular listeners to the podcast will know over the years, I anyway, joke about the fact that if you’ve got something really important to say in your book, you’ve got to see it in the first three chapters because I’m terrible at reading full books. It’s a thing I’ve worked on constantly to try and overcome. And today ahead of this interview, with Donna. We were supposed to skim the book. Yeah, to prepare ourselves for the interview.

James Royal-Lawson
And I already said that, oh my word. I’m trying to skim it, but I can’t. I kept getting drawn in. And I found myself reading the book, rather than every time I tried to skim it. I’ve ended up reading it. And it’s kind of testament, actually to the book that it is kind of unskimmble.

Per Axbom
Yeah, because then I started reading it. And it was like, “Oh”, this is literally a quote from our chat this morning. “Wow, this is a good book it’s speaking right to me”. [Laugh] Honestly, I mean, fantastic. work Donna in engaging us, in that way. It felt also, maybe perhaps because we are the perfect target group for you. I don’t know. But how does that make you feel? [Laugh]

Donna Lichaw
The honest answer, if you want it, is, you know, I wrote the book for busy leaders, busy CEOs, busy executives, and I always try to make my work very, very skimmable and scannable. So you can just zip through it. And so on the one hand, I’m so glad I suck you in, in that way, because it’s all so important on the other hand, I’m also thinking,” Oh my God”, but just, “like crap, what did I do?” But no, I think if your experiences is like all of my other readers, you’re gonna read it all but you will zip through it because you can’t stop reading so [Laugh]

James Royal-Lawson
one thing, I think because like me and Per we’re actually not leaders in the conventional sense because we’re both, you know, have our own companies and are self employed. So if anything we lead ourselves but the context that we work in often have elements of leadership in what we do and what we achieve. But I actually personally think one particular aspect of the book that makes it approachable is the superhero theme to it or structure to it. Actually, in my notes I wrote down “the superhero story arc”, is what I noted down.

Donna Lichaw
Yeah, I think you know, it’s another one of those funny paradoxes of how I live my life which is I think superhero analogies are extremely accessible. And half the time I wonder man, am I being juvenile with my, with my references and talking about capes and superheroes, but I’ll backtrack a minute if it would help for our listeners to talk about what? Alright, so the context of the book is I have a very long tenure in the tech world on the product consulting side of things, the product development side of things, and now on the leadership development side of things. And where this book comes from, and my entire business right now is that as a product consultant for years, I was working with senior leaders at established tech companies, successful teams, successful startups that were scaling. And what I was finding is that they would bring me in to help with product issues, like where or why are we not moving as fast or, you know, we want to increase our influence with other teams across our company. And I would come in and realise that what was really going on were people problems, not product problems, and it was specifically an executive team at one big, big company that pulled me aside.

One time, we were at a leadership retreat, and people at this company were very blunt, and they just straight up, said to me, “you know, we keep talking about our customers and building things for our customers”. And my whole thing at the time was helping companies see how their customers could be heroes and building their entire product ecosystem around that. And these executives just straight up said to me, you know, I don’t feel like a hero. And can I be the hero, please? Because, like, I can’t do my job if I don’t feel like a hero right now. And ever since I just I couldn’t stop thinking about that question. Of course, my knee jerk reaction to them was no, stop it, you have to turn everyone else into heroes, you’re not the centre of the universe.

And but I’ve since over the last seven years devoted my entire career, my my entire business, I ended up pivoting completely into leadership development. And my big question that has driven me is how can leaders be heroes? Well, first, it doesn’t matter that leaders do or don’t feel like heroes. Second, if so, how? How can they become heroes? And the answer is everything that’s in the book. And everything that I do now, as an executive coach, the answer is, yes, you not only can be a hero, but you do have to feel like a hero, if you’re going to be successful at your job and successful at especially, I still work in tech, all of my clients work in tech. Successful at bringing your business to the future and scaling and you know, launching successful products. But you not only have to feel like a hero of your own story. You feel like you have to feel like a superhero. And I love superhero stories and, and comics and, and movies. So out of the book takes you through what makes a superhero? And how can you apply this to your own leadership? So that’s for listeners, that’s the superhero background that we’re talking about here?

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah. When you said there as well about that, the universe doesn’t revolve around you, you know, everyone else has to be a hero instead. But you in the book, you say that? The story does start with you, that your identity, just as we’ve seen with many superheroes, they don’t necessarily realise that they are the centre of the story and the superhero in the beginning. And I think, oh, that to me, that story starts with you. Was. That touched me at that point? When you think ah yeah, it kind of does.

Donna Lichaw
Yeah, it touched me too, because so the world that I come from, is the tech world. I’ve been working in tech for 25 years now. I’ve had so many terrible bosses over the years, and I have often thought we have this, there’s this term “servant leadership”. I’ve often thought man, you know, the best bosses, like I’ve had great bosses to the best bosses, on the surface, felt selfless. They empowered everyone they worked with do amazing things. They always made me feel as someone who reported to them like I was the centre of their universe, or they were someone who if they worked for me, they still made me feel like I was the centre of the universe. And I always had this idea of like, you know, you as leader you’re supposed to let go of your ego, let go of yourself and really just be thinking about the impact that you want to have in the world.

But what I’ve found over the years is that a lot of us when we’re in leadership positions, we’re so concerned with the impact that we forget about what it takes to make an impact, which is you have to have strength. And we’re so concerned with power, yet we look outside for power and people to give us power. But power, I can’t believe I’m saying this out loud. But seriously, power comes from within. I’m not a very woowoo person. But now apparently, that’s the industry I’m in, which is helping you find your inner power, so that you can bring everyone else along, help them find theirs. And that’s how you build successful businesses. So yeah, it’s totally like the movies when, you know, an unlikely superhero suddenly shows up and they keep bumbling around and making a mess out of everything. And then they learn, oh, hang on, it’s me all along. I have to grow up. It’s all the same thing.

Per Axbom
And I think this is what you’re doing in your book as well. You’re telling these engaging stories, just like you’re doing right now. And you’re bringing us on your journey with that first story about that event, where you realise well, maybe I’m not focusing on the right thing. And you’re changing the whole focus of your business, you’re changing your outlook on how things work. And you’re bringing us on all of that journey, which is fantastic to me.

Donna Lichaw
I appreciate that. That was it was really hard for me to do, it’s almost like I’m my own worst. My own worst subject or my own worst client, I hate talking about myself, I had to remove myself completely from the picture and just help other people be amazing. And this was the hardest thing I’ve ever written, which is ,it just there was no way to remove myself from the impact I wanted the book to have, which ironically, is part of the point of the book. And it’s what I help founders and CEOs and executives and or, you know, managers at giant tech companies like it’s what I help other people understand as well. And I had to go through it myself.

Per Axbom
That’s why it’s so powerful. Because that’s I mean, that’s, the vulnerability. I mean, and it’s coming across, in how you’re writing it. Because mostly, I mean, if you write a leadership book, usually you want people to think that you are great, and you come with all the answers. And that’s not the way you’re coming across at all. It’s like we’re exploring this together, these are some different paths we should be exploring. These are things that I’ve witnessed happening, and this is what I learned from them.

Donna Lichaw
I and again, I appreciate that you should have seen an early, early version of this book, when I initially sent an early draft to pre readers. You use a tech analogy. And when writing a book, you prototype your babies and you put them out there as soon as you can in front of people who are actually your target audience, and you figure out how they experience it. And yeah, the early draft of the book, the feedback was universally, something like, who are you? Why should I care about what you have to say? And so my God, is it hard? I definitely got a good glorious kick in the butt from early pre readers who reminded me “oh, right”. This is my whole thesis, like, Yeah, I do have to, I do have to bring myself into this. There’s no way not to. But I mean, whether your a manager

James Royal-Lawson
catch 22

Donna Lichaw
It’s a Yeah, and we all do. It’s so hard. It is vulnerable, being in a position where you want to move people forward and to accomplish whatever it is you want to accomplish. It is really scary and vulnerable. And yeah, we all do it. So yeah, I’m glad you get that out of the book, because I do. Now and the version that’s out in the world that is the part that people really seem to appreciate that really seems to to hook them is the intertwinedness of my story and their stories as readers and the stories in the book of all the amazing people I’ve worked with over the years.

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah.

Per Axbom
There’s a quote in the book. “Trying to be someone you are not is a waste of time.” And I think that is very apt because it feels to me like we tend to think about what a leader should be. That’s sort of what you were saying before this. This is how thought leaders were and everyone also has to hear that all constantly from others, this is how leaders should be and then then you try to be that instead of reaching out and being who you actually are, which is what you are helping people realise.

Donna Lichaw
Yeah, I mean, I come to. People come to me all the time, and unlikely people who you wouldn’t expect to have this challenge come to me. So it might be underrepresented leaders in tech who, you know, this you would expect, which is I’ll have women or underrepresented folks come to me and say, “Oh, my God, everyone keeps telling me to speak up, be louder, “I have some come to me, who say, “hey, my performance evaluations I keep, I keep being told to, like, be less abrupt”. But you know, I’m the, I’m the VP like, what am I supposed to do? No one listens to me. So they’re constantly being told what to do. But you also hear it from I work with a lot of founder CEOs, and executive teams where even they come, it could be someone who you would never expect, deals with something like impostor syndrome, or people telling them what to do. But they come to me saying,” Oh, my God, everyone keeps like my investors, my board, they keep telling me, I need to show up in this way, I need to be more loud, I need to be quieter, I need to be more confident”.

And it’s hard, it takes a lot of energy to you know that saying “fake it till you make it”, it’s true to, you know, a certain extent. But if you’re going against who you are at your core, you’re going to waste a lot of energy trying to show up as this leader who you think you’re supposed to be. And when you know, just like the superheroes in the comic, when you can find your own inner strength and see them as superpowers, I don’t care how quiet you are being quiet. If you’re at the point where you either started a company or you’ve ever been promoted into any position where you’re responsible for other people, if you’re quiet, then there’s strength in being quiet. If we figure out how to embrace that great, you’ll make an impact. So yeah, I don’t like the leadership literature out there that tells people how to be and what to do. And it’s, I find it a waste of time.

Per Axbom
How do you make people believe you when you say that? Because I mean, just part about being quiet, I think is one of those. I mean, being shy as a leader? How is that even possible?

Donna Lichaw
[Laugh] So I know, you would never think that it’s something that exists, you know, the answer. Okay. So this is another reason why I wrote the book, which is, how do I convince people? Well, I don’t tell them, I don’t talk at them. Because, you know, in the business world, another thing that’s very in vogue is like storytelling, storytelling is something that all leaders need to have. You all need to be great storytellers. And the thing is, even though here we were just saying a few minutes ago, you matter, your story matters. Like no one actually really cares about your story. And you don’t need to run around telling people stories, or telling people what to do. So when I work with folks, I mean, yeah, I could sit around telling people, you know, what are your superpowers, write them down? And great. Now go own them. Okay, you’re quiet. Good. Excellent. Good job. Now go be superhero. It is we just wouldn’t work. And so it’s a lot like, you know, I’ll say, I guess because I have this tech background, which I know a lot of us do. It’s it’s a lot like you can’t tell your customers, “hey, this thing is amazing. go use it,” people have to experience it.

And so when I work with executives, what we do is we treat their leadership and the impact that they want to have almost like a research project, where we go and we mine their their past experiences. So how have you showed up in the past? How have you made an impact in the past. When you do that, that’s one facet of being able to see ah, actually, I use quiet leadership as an example. Oh, man, you know, whenever I’m really quiet, I have amazing ideas. And then when I do speak, people listen. Especially because I don’t talk that much. So when I do say something, they’re like, oh, wow, the CEO is talking. We have to listen. And so it’s, you know, one, mining your past helps you see how your strengths have played out before and have moved you and others forward. But it’s still it’s not enough.

And so another thing we do is we go out and we mine, your people, your system, and I’ll go out and talk to people. So it’s really like a user research project. In essence, I talk to people who work with you, who rely on you, who you want to move your business forward, and who are essential to your success. And I find out how they experience you. So just like you would go out and talk to customers find out how they experience using your products, or you got out and talk to customers and find out how they get things done, or what’s important to them, or what their goals are, what their dreams are, what magic would look like, if everything if they could wave a magic wand over the problems they have, and your product could save the day. It’s the same exact thing. And so when I go out, and I kickstart conversations between a leader or a team, because this is the same with with teams, although that will be probably my next book whenever I’m recovered and ready for that one.

James Royal-Lawson
The third one in the trilogy.

Donna Lichaw
Exactly. Yeah, you go out. And you find out what the real story is. You end up finding things like I’ll use quiet leadership as an example, again, wow, yeah, when they do speak up in a meeting, we listen, because otherwise, they’re so quiet. Or if they don’t say anything in a meeting, we look over to them and find out what’s going on, because we want to know what they’re saying. And you find out what kind of impact you’ve had on people and you can have so that you keep meeting your shared business goals. Because ultimately, I think this is another misconception, we have leadership, it’s not all about just external influence. But it’s also not just all about feeling better inside and getting rid of burnout, and all of the inner mental health stuff, it’s about finding that perfect mix of being the best version of you, and making an impact and you don’t work in a in a vacuum. So you got to know how you’re doing and how your superpowers are being experienced by your broader universe in order to really use them.

James Royal-Lawson
I think that you don’t work, you don’t exist in a vacuum. And I think what was, what I liked about the retrospective approach or looking back approach that you talked about now and go through in the book. That you can use childhood as part of that process, too. So you could be, you don’t have to be an established leader with lots of leadership to look back on. You can be very new in a leadership role and still look back on earlier bits, your life and pull out these, these core aspects of what lies there underneath as your qualities as a coming upcoming leader.

Donna Lichaw
Yeah, when I when I talk about people’s backgrounds, I get the best stories. And actually, maybe that’s another answer to your question. How do I convince people, I let them tell me, their stories, and then I let everyone they work with tell me their stories. And I don’t actually have to convince anyone of anything. But I’ve heard the most amazing stories from people like, you know, I when I was six years old, on the playground, I did, you know, I was always inventing games, and then getting everyone to play these new games or, you know, just, I think that was actually an example that I’ve heard. But yeah, our inner strengths and the things that make us most excited, and that really light us up, they’ve always been there since we were, since we were little, we just can’t always see them, because we’re not always looking for them. But they’re always there. It doesn’t have to be in a work context. It’s just there in life all the time.

Per Axbom
So we sort of pass through identity and superpower as part of your four larger themes throughout the book. And when it comes to mission, it starts off telling us, we probably talked about a lot of time, if you’re not clear on where you’re going you can’t get to where you want to go. And for me, that’s interesting. I recently read a blog post that sort of, up ended my thinking, which talked about maybe you should give up on your dreams. And sometimes it’s and that’s what I was thinking about as I was reading this chapter is like, so maybe I just have the wrong idea of what my mission or goal or vision is. And that’s I’ve been going through that for the past two weeks since I read that post. And how do I find out what my mission is?

Donna Lichaw
Yeah, that’s an that’s, it’s fascinating. It’s a tough one because even, it’s hard to see when it’s ourselves and our lives. I’ve worked with oh, man, I mean, I worked once with a CEO of a billion dollar company who was not even sure of what, what that was. And you would think that it would be clear and, and at some point, also, you know, we are intertwined with our businesses as well. So that was presenting itself as a business issue, where people around the company are like, what are we doing? What is our, what is our purpose? What is our focus? And it’s so it’s very, very, very common.

And it’s, you know, it’s easy to just float through life without being clear on it. But the, wait, so one, I will say, you’re not alone? And that’s okay. It’s, it’s hard to do. Second. I mean, it’s the same thing as finding your superpowers, which is, when you can go through your past and really look at alright, when was I at my absolute best in general? Or when was I my absolute best as a leader more specifically? And you look at the outcomes you’ve had. So for example, you know, use this, inventing new games on the playgrounds example, which is, yeah, it was always inventing new grant games on the playground. And what was the outcome? Will. I got kids, and all my friends to be really active and engaged and and have fun. Alright, so let’s say that’s it. And you know, I’m just just making this up on the fly. But let’s say we look at some other stories of projects that you’ve loved working on at work? Oh, yeah.

Well, you know, at my last company, I created this new organisation from scratch, and we had a team of five and then, you know, we had a team of 100. And it was incredible. When you look at the impact you’ve had there, what was it? Oh, well, you know, it was incredible to get people engaged and involved in the work we were doing, and they had fun while doing it. And yeah, the fact that we were successful was great, but the fact that we had so much fun doing it was what really makes me happy. So let’s say you hear enough stories like this, it could be that your mission is to engage your world and create more fun at work, you know, it’s a simple example. But if that’s what it is, then let that become your hypothesis that you can now go test and apply to everything you do in the future. When you can involve those then, yeah it gets spectacular.

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah, it doesn’t stop, I guess it doesn’t stop you from achieving business goals. I mean, if you think if you come to that conclusion that you and what drives you, and what makes you end up in successful places is happiness at work, for example, then I guess you use that to drive you and your group towards a more business related objective.

Donna Lichaw
You do. And I think that’s the key with all of this is that you think of the intermission as something that’s gonna then it has to actually resonate with the outer mission. So your team, your organisation, and your business, whether you own the business or not. If you don’t own your business, and you work for someone else, it has to at least, resonate. Because if what you care about as a human is not what your company cares about, you’re going not just be unhappy, but you’re not going to do a great job and be as effective as you could be. So it not only has to resonate, but it’s something that you can then align deliberately so I’ll use the happiness example.

You know, I once worked for a company where their mission was to deliver food happiness, and it was a delivery service kind of thing. Well now it’s super that I guess everyone has internet enabled delivery but at the time It was kind of a new thing. And the idea was food happiness. So let’s say you’re that person who has spent their life making people happy. If you work at that company, or you, you founded that company, or you move into executive leadership in that company, it’s going to perfectly resonate. And not only will resonate, but then you can start quantifying and thinking about real, measurable business outcomes, because if food happiness ,using this company, as an example of food, happiness was their thing. And it was nice for like, branding materials, and their, you know, style guides and all of that and their company values. But when the service would break down, and half of New York City wouldn’t get their restaurant delivery for dinner, there was no food happiness happening. And they were actually able to, you know, start quantifying and aligning their business goals towards that and making sure that everything they built was not just on brand, but that metrics aligned so it helps them come up with new features and testing things and prioritising roadmaps. It’s, it becomes everything.

Per Axbom
And I love that it’s simple. I mean, that’s the thing, isn’t it? And for me, this aligns what you were saying, Oh, almost felt embarrassing to say, “power comes from within”. But I mean, it’s even the mission comes from within. And I don’t think we think about that enough that there are so many things that we can find within ourselves. Because we talk so much about you can be whatever you want to be, you can make any goal you want. But I’m realising more and more, that doesn’t necessarily mean that I will enjoy that goal, I may be able to accomplish it. But it’s more fun. If I find within myself, what do I really want to do, and try to express that as a goal.

Donna Lichaw
It you know, there’s another piece also, which is it not only it comes from within, and it’s so important to see, because a lot of us in the tech world, again, whether we work for companies that we found companies or both. A lot of us are problem solvers. So we often mistakenly see our mission as fixing things that are broken, which is great. But when we do that, we lose sight of why it matters, that we’re fixing all the broken things. And when you’re not clear on the big picture impact that you can have life and business is just a game of Whack a Mole, where you’re just fixing problems all the time, and you’re never going to be happy, your team’s always going to be frustrated, and your business doesn’t Thrive that way. So being clear on big picture mission, like the why, of what we do is so so, so important.

Per Axbom
What a beautiful articulation of why fixing problems can be a problem. [Laugh]

Donna Lichaw
I have learned that the hard way many times over Yes.

James Royal-Lawson
One thing I’ve been wondering about those, I mean, you’ve very good job of pointing out your findings, your superpower, and and you even say, use it for good. And that comes up in numerous times in a book that you point out there using your superpower for good. Which raises, of course, the question of the flip side, the antihero, the evil genius, or the kind of you know, the superhero that isn’t, you know, isn’t doing for good. What? I think my question here is, do we need to watch out for any flags to make sure that we aren’t blindly using our superpowers for evil?

Donna Lichaw
Yeah, we do. We constantly need to be aware of that, especially the more senior we get and the more high impact we get in leadership. The impact you have can be so much greater on the positive side and then also on the negative side. And especially in the tech world. This is such an important and timely issue that I see. I okay, how to put this. There was a time I work. I would say the big chunk of my practice is founders and startup and scaleup executive teams. And I love that world. Even if I’m working with giant tech companies, it’s still probably a startup or scale up division at the tech company that I’m working with. And there’s so much potential to do really cool things with technology and in building new companies and organisations. And there’s so much potential to do damage on a human level to the people we work with, and then to the world at large.

And so I, you know, partly wrote this book, because I want more people to think about the impact that they’re having in the world, it’s a bit of a cliche in the tech world, you know, what’s, what’s your purpose, oh, to make the world a better place. But it’s essential, because if you’re not doing that, what’s the point? I mean, even you know, to use comic book metaphor, even supervillains think their work, they’re making the world a better place. So it’s, you know, and they get the best ones eventually learn how to do it properly, and then they convert over to the good side. But it’s important to not just want to make the world a better place, but then to actually be able to measure the impact you’re having, and then see the impact, and experience the impact you’re having.

And so when I work with people, it’s, I won’t work with you, if I don’t think that you’re adding value to our industry or to the world. And if you’re unsure, I’ll push you on it. Because, for me, the last thing I want to do is help more founders, for example, succeed if they’re going to be doing damage in the world, or giant tech companies. And so it’s although at the point that you’re getting to the level of a giant tech company. And so it is a lot harder to measure impact in a way because there’s what your entire company is doing as a company, and then there’s what your organisation is doing as an organisation within that company. So it’s not easy, you know, and I’ll admit that and I think we all working in this industry admit that but it’s everyone can have an impact. I mean, you even see this at big tech companies right now with people quitting over certain ethical issues with AI. And then you know, people up in leadership, realising the important people are quitting and trying to make an impact. So like everyone can make an impact. And it’s so important that we’re thinking about it at all times.

Computer voice
I think that’s a beautiful note to end on. Thank you so much, Donna. This was fantastic.

James Royal-Lawson
Thank you, Donna.

Donna Lichaw
Of course, it was a pleasure chatting with you both as always.

James Royal-Lawson
I’m going to come straight out with it Per. I am a Donna fan. This is the third time we’ve chatted to Donna on the podcast. The previous time has been quite a while ago now 2016 and 2017. But not only reading her stuff is great, talking to her is wonderful.

Per Axbom
Yeah, she’s very insightful. I am a Donna fan, too. And I’m so pleased by how open she is even about the struggles of writing her book and how these early drafts that didn’t resonate with her with her early pre readers. She’s telling us everything about she’s so open. And that’s what I loved about the book itself as well that she’s so open. And that’s what makes it so good. Because you can sense that it’s believable. And it’s about her and she’s putting herself.

James Royal-Lawson
At the same time. It’s a story we all recognise. I mean, she says herself, there about, you know, constantly being told to be something. And now the imposter syndrome. Fake it till you make it. Leveraging your strengths. So much of this is, is things we recognise. It’s relatable.

Per Axbom
Definitely.

James Royal-Lawson
She makes it relatable.

Per Axbom
Yeah, it’s very impressive. I mean, I’m a huge superhero fan. You probably not as much as I am.

James Royal-Lawson
You beat me on that scale. I’m just slightly more sci-fi I reckon and you’re slightly more superhero. But, you know, we’re fans of things with powers, I guess. Which does lead me to the question there Per. I mean, what are your superpowers?

Per Axbom
I mean, that’s so hard. You kind of think that you know what your super powers are and you try to think about, about what context you try to find that in? Is it in the workplace, at home? What she suggests in the book is starting by identifying three of your own heroes, and then start thinking about why are they your heroes? What, what characteristics do you admire most about them? And I’ve always had one of my heroes is Astrid Lindgren, the author of Pippi Longstocking, and so many other children’s books. And I’ve tried to figure out well what is it about her? Is it her writing? Is it her style? Is it an actually, it’s about her caring? So she cares so much about children and that’s her driving force. And I think that is what resonates with me. So I’m, I’m recognising by pulling from that, I recognise well, that is what I want to contribute.

James Royal-Lawson
Well the thing is, I’m actually, throughout my life I always have a bit of a problem with hero worshipping. I’ve always been reluctant hero worshiper. And it’s partly because of the whole thing that heroes, it’s perceived perception of who they are, rather than who they genuinely are. So I, I really like the example Donna gave about thinking back to your childhood, or rather thinking back in life. Because that is undeniably about you. It’s not about hero projection. It’s not about kind of perceived qualities in people who are, you know, they’re marketed towards you. So you’re going to have a skewed perception of some of these things.

And, you know, thinking back about your life, that’s why if you’re what is your superpower, because, you know, looking back, you’ve got, you’ve got a lot of decades of experience now to look back. And think about that. And Donna herself, she, I mean, she, got, she called both me and you out without realising it. When she’s talking about the, you know, trying to fix things and playing Whack a Mole, fixing problems itself can be a problem. And, you know, we’re both, we’re both guilty of that. So what’s the bigger mission? What are our superpowers?

Per Axbom
Right? So I mean, that’s the thing, isn’t it, you can get stuck in thinking that your superpower is something that you happen to be very good at, because, but it’s not about the task. It’s exactly what you’re saying. What’s the? What’s the mission? Why are you doing these things? What are you trying to achieve?

James Royal-Lawson
Yeah, so you’ve got your qualities. What are the super hero qualities? But where are they taking you? And, you know, again, wonderful talking to Donna wonderful reading her book. But this is quite hard. It’s an awkward interview in the sense that it kicks off a bit of an existential crisis effectively, or potentially. She’s gonna get an email now and tell us that “Oh, my God, that wasn’t what I was supposed to do to you”. But at the same time, it’s a journey. And this is all part of looking back on your journey so far, isn’t it?

Per Axbom
Yeah. And it can feel frustrating. And it can feel like a lot of things to think about, and you read the book, and maybe we sounded simple when we were talking about it in the interview, but she does bring it up, how conflicting it can feel, and you think you’re supposed to be going faster, but you’re really not. But what she also says is “that without gravity, because she’s alluding again, to the superpowers, you would drift aimlessly or simply float away”. And the thing is, for me, that’s a way of saying also “no pain, no gain”, you have to go through all this. So with the existential crisis is good, because that means the beginning of something.

James Royal-Lawson
Exactly. Beginning of another part of the story.

Per Axbom
Recommended listening for this show, obviously, would be our previous interviews with Donna.

James Royal-Lawson
That is exactly right Per, which are Episodes 165 and 140.

Per Axbom
Of Season 1. [Laugh]

James Royal-Lawson
140 is story mapping back in September 2016, based around her first book, and through Rosenfeld media, and then just over a year later about a year later, Episode 165 enterprise stories, where we talk where we take some of her ideas and apply them to enterprise UX and enterprise situations.

Per Axbom
Nice. Also excellent interviews.

James Royal-Lawson
Absolutely. Donna fans.

Per Axbom
And here’s something for you to think about. If you want James and Per i.e. us i.e. UX podcast, as part of your next conference events or in house training, we are offering workshops, talks and courses to inspire and help you grow as individuals as teams and organisations. And you get in touch by emailing hey@UX podcast.com. Remember to keep moving.

James Royal-Lawson
See you on the other side.

[Music]

Per Axbom
James, did you hear that Batman invited all the superheroes to an evening discussing Bitcoin investments?

James Royal-Lawson
No, I didn’t Per.

Per Axbom
Yes, Superman didn’t go because it was a crypto night.

James Royal-Lawson
Oh